Resolution of East & West Calamities
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| 2005-01-04 12:08:52 |
 I have a game of Civ this weekend with 17-18 players, so we will be using all of the commodity and calamity (major and minor) cards. I was just wondering if there is a set way of deciding which calamity goes first (between East and West). The order (East of West) can make a big difference.
For example: It is possible for one nation to be a viable beneficiary of both the East and West civil war (by being within 8 spaces of both of the victims).
How would you decide which to do first? The player will be unable to benefit from both. It is unlikely that he would have the most tokens in stock after he benefits from the first civil war. To my knowledge, there is no mention of this in the rules.
I suggest that identical calamities be dealt with in AST order. That would be easy to do. Any other ideas?
I was also wondering about the possibility of one person getting two identical major calamities at once (say two famines). This could potentially devastate a player unfairly. I will see if it comes up this weekend at the game and report any troubles to the forum. If this turns out to become a bother, I would suggest changing the rules to not allow a player to be the primary victim of the same calamity in the same round (the duplicate is removed before calamity selection happens if the player has more than two calamities)
Ravsitar
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Ravsitar
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| 2005-01-04 15:21:08 |
Apollo 18 (the 1.3 PBeM playtest) resolves the identical calamities in AST order. As AST order is defined as the general tie breaker (if no other one is specified) it is the most obvious choice.
As far as one player getting two identical major calamities, we have also dealt with that. First up, if you think about it, two famines is impossible. You can never have duplicates on minor calamities, or non-tradable majors.
Again, this is Apollo 18, and not official.
If there are calamities to be discarded (due to the limits), the duplicates are tossed first. ex: If the player has two Epidemics and Civil War, one of the Epidemics will be tossed. ex2: If the player has two Epidemics, nothing will be tossed.
Secondary Victims are allowed to see the allocations from both calamities before allocating damage. Secondary victims also cannot be hit for more than a Primary victim after civ adjustments.
I suspect people grossly overestimate the damage and probability from/of having two of the same calamity.
BTW, duplicates have only happened once in Apollo 18, and the above rules were a disadvantage for the player rather than an advantage, and overly limited how much you could hurt the leaders. Next time we play, I'll be removing the limits on secondary damage and probably the non-random tossing.
Jeff
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mcbeth
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| 2005-01-05 7:26:21 |
Thanks for the reply Jeff. I did not have a calamity list in front of me so I could not remember which were tradable or not. Doh!
Anyway, we will be using AST order as the tiebreaker. We will also enforce automatically discarding the duplicate calamity when a player has more than three major calamities to deal with.
As for secondary victims seeing allocations for damage. You do this with all identical calamities (even if they are not on the same primary victim)? Is this how you deal with it?
-Example: Both Rome and Carthage hold Superstition. Carthage resolves his first and assigns secondary victims. Then, before Carthage#8217;s secondary victims act, Rome resolves his and assigns secondary victims. Then all secondary victims (those from Carthage and Rome) resolve the damage. This would allow secondary victims to see the entire damage from a type of calamity (Superstition in this case) before removing units.
That seems to make sense and give the secondary victims a chance to see the big picture before resolving the damage. We will not play with any limitation on secondary victim damage. With 17 players, I am sure there will be multiple people in play that you would like to hit with secondary damages. Thanks.
Ravsitar
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Ravsitar
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| 2005-01-05 7:47:32 |
Yup. Allowing the secondaries to wait for both calamities applies even if they are in different hands.
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mcbeth
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| 2005-01-05 11:02:45 |
Thanks.
Ravsitar
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| 2005-01-05 11:50:04 |
With 17 players, I am sure there will be multiple people in play that you would like to hit with secondary damages.Really? Who on earth could you mean?  -
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dowobeha
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| 2005-01-05 17:40:28 |
You and Speck mostly  Ravsitar "Stupidity is just ignorance with attitude."
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| 2005-01-12 7:39:33 |
This is one of the reasons (i.e. playtesting) I'd love to get a game large enough to get both stacks of trade cards going. mcbeth wrote: If there are calamities to be discarded (due to the limits), the duplicates are tossed first. ex: If the player has two Epidemics and Civil War, one of the Epidemics will be tossed. ex2: If the player has two Epidemics, nothing will be tossed.
At first read, this sounded like a good idea; enforce greater variety in calamities. Then again, letting it be random - and maybe someone wants to trade for both epidemics. ::twitch:: Quote: Secondary Victims are allowed to see the allocations from both calamities before allocating damage. Secondary victims also cannot be hit for more than a Primary victim after civ adjustments.
Like the first part (but it does slow it down if the double is split across two people.) The second part is a change which I think would cause unintended changes. Take Piracy for example: It is possible to do more damage to a secondary if the primary has no coastal. I would leave as is. Quote: BTW, duplicates have only happened once in Apollo 18, and the above rules were a disadvantage for the player rather than an advantage,
Yep: Get Civil War and then grab a few commodities to get a chance to get it discarded? Having to first discard the duplicate Epidemics would be a pain.
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busybody
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| 2005-01-12 9:30:41 |
As I'm sure you know, Apollo 18 is trying to play test the game (albiet way too slowly and with the wrong set of rules)
In PBeM, the secondary being able to see both calamities speeds things up as they only have to submit moves once. I can't imagine it slowing down the FtF game that much.
I think I mentioned elsewhere that I would take away the damage restrictions if I were to do it again. It becomes too difficult to significantly hit the leaders otherwise.
Jeff
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mcbeth
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| 2005-01-14 0:07:37 |
mcbeth wrote: As I'm sure you know, Apollo 18 is trying to play test the game (albiet way too slowly and with the wrong set of rules)
In PBeM, the secondary being able to see both calamities speeds things up as they only have to submit moves once. I can't imagine it slowing down the FtF game that much.
I think I mentioned elsewhere that I would take away the damage restrictions if I were to do it again. It becomes too difficult to significantly hit the leaders otherwise.
Jeff
My personal opinion would be to remove duplicates first, resolve two identical calamities in sequence in AST order, and have no other restrictions. Whatever we agree on has to be included in the rules, any ideas on wording, placement?
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Jonno
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| 2005-01-14 1:04:38 |
How about changing the following:
29.5 No player may be the primary victim of more than two non-minor calamities in the same turn and one minor calamity in the same turn. If a player receives more than two non-minor calamities in the same turn he will first discard any duplicates. If he still has mor then two his non-minor calamities are shuffled together, and two are drawn at random. The remaining non-minor calamities received by that player are disregarded and are returned to the appropriate stack of trade cards. The same process is then followed with minor calamities with only one minor calamity being selected. There is no restriction on the infliction of secondary effects of calamities.
29.62 Non-minor Calamities are then revealed and resolved in ascending order, starting with Volcanic Eruption/Earthquake and ending with Piracy. Non-tradable calamities are resolved before tradable calamities of the same numeric value. (i.e., the order of resolution is Volcanic Eruption, Treachery, Famine, Superstition, etc.). If two players have the exact same non-minor calamity ties are broken in AST order. Any player with a higher numeric value may resolve a non-minor calamity simultaneously with another lower numeric value calamity provided his actions will have no effect on the other player’s resolution. This type of simultaneous resolution is encouraged and will speed up the game.
FYI... I'm thinking we should change non-minor to Major. Sounds better.
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Velusion
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| 2005-01-14 2:59:09 |
Velusion wrote: How about changing the following:
29.5 No player may be the primary victim of more than two non-minor calamities in the same turn and one minor calamity in the same turn. If a player receives more than two non-minor calamities in the same turn he will first discard any duplicates. If he still has mor then two his non-minor calamities are shuffled together, and two are drawn at random. The remaining non-minor calamities received by that player are disregarded and are returned to the appropriate stack of trade cards. The same process is then followed with minor calamities with only one minor calamity being selected. There is no restriction on the infliction of secondary effects of calamities.
29.62 Non-minor Calamities are then revealed and resolved in ascending order, starting with Volcanic Eruption/Earthquake and ending with Piracy. Non-tradable calamities are resolved before tradable calamities of the same numeric value. (i.e., the order of resolution is Volcanic Eruption, Treachery, Famine, Superstition, etc.). If two players have the exact same non-minor calamity ties are broken in AST order. Any player with a higher numeric value may resolve a non-minor calamity simultaneously with another lower numeric value calamity provided his actions will have no effect on the other player’s resolution. This type of simultaneous resolution is encouraged and will speed up the game.
Sure. Velusion wrote: FYI... I'm thinking we should change non-minor to Major. Sounds better.
Sounds OK, but that would most likely require som sort of clarification. In my 2.06 Draft 2 I have updated the Calamity cards table at page 7-8 with a new column "Severity" (Minor or Major), removed the 30.11 paragraf, rewritten the 30.1 paragraf, clarified the 29.61 and 29.62 paragrafs, and done a search-and replace for non-minor. All calamities has also got ther statuses in brackets after their titles (ie "30.21 Volcanic Eruption or Earthquake (major, non-tradable)". If this wasn't what you expected, clarify how you want it, and I'll fix it. - Jonno Updated texts include: Quote:
29.5 No player may be the primary victim of more than two major and one minor calamities in the same turn. If a player receives more than two major calamities in the same turn he will first discard any duplicates. If he still has more then two his major calamities are shuffled together, and two are drawn at random. The remaining major calamities received by that player are disregarded and are returned to the appropriate stack of trade cards. The same process is then followed with minor calamities with only one minor calamity being selected. There is no restriction on the infliction of secondary effects of calamities.
29.61 Minor calamities are resolved first, before major calamities. Each player reveals these calamities simultaneously. These minor calamities should, for the most part, be resolved simultaneously. If any player objects to resolving them simultaneously the appropriate minor calamities must be resolved in ascending order (i.e. starting with Squandered Wealth and ending in Banditry) with ties broken in AST order.
29.62 Major calamities are then revealed and resolved in ascending order, starting with Volcanic Eruption/Earthquake and ending with Piracy. Non-tradable calamities are resolved before tradable calamities from the same trade stack (i.e., the order of resolution is Volcanic Eruption, Treachery, Famine, Superstition, etc.). If two players have the exact same major calamity ties are broken in AST order. Any player with a calamity due to be resolved later may resolve a major calamity simultaneously with another calamity provided his actions will have no effect on the other player’s resolution. This type of simultaneous resolution is encouraged and will speed up the game.
30.1 The effects of the various calamities are set out below. The calamities are listed in the order of their trade stacks, with the non-tradable calamity first, followed by the tradable major calamity, followed by the minor calamity belonging to that trade stack. There are no calamities associated with the first trade card stack. These effects are summed up in the Calamity Quick Chart.
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Jonno
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