Thanks

I don't see myself as an artist. Only as a graphic designer. And in that role, i'm in duty for the product, not for my own satisfaction.

That is why I want other people to react. Otherwise, I would only finish my work, present it to the people and say "This is it!"

I'm trying to get the best result, that most people, (or at least my own group, as I mentioned) are happy with. Things can always improve, and that's no attack on the innitator.

Anyway, when it comes to Momument. When you think I should draw another image, I'm willing to do that. But I want the best image suitable, and not let me drift away by taste or interests.

I've started a new topic only conceirning the lay-out of the cards:

http://www.civproject.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=443

Flo de Haan, this is wonderful!

While I just can't take the time to read all you background checking, I'm amazed at your images, both in what they feature and how you draw them. The style is close to the original, still smoother and cleaner, and well, generally better!

I'm definitely going to use all of them for 2.10 whenever I have time to complete it (sometime during the spring, hopefully January/Febuary).

You just became my new favourite VIP at the site.

I'd love if you could send me the source and/or PNG images for your pictures (as the destructive compression of jpeg just doesn't cut it).

well.

I've drawn em all op white paper, then scanned em and saved em as .psd
than I just edited em a bit (exposure, desaturate and selective color) to give a better black/white look instead of grey with all the pencileraser-marks still on the paper-scans.

(you see, I first draw by pencil, than I use pen and ink over it, then erase the remainder pencil-lines).

When all work is doen and definitive, I also make a good file of stuff.
Think i'd rather burn them on a cd or so and send it by mail.

It's all made to share after all.

Sounds great, I can take it by e-mail, snail-mail or ftp upload, as you prefer. ".psd" is an acceptable format, though I'll have to convert them to something else when I get them (don't use Photoshop more than necessarily, as I'm on Linux, and booting an emulated Windows is both tedious and slow).

Ok. i don;t know much about that. I'm an old-fashioned conservative Windows user. (i'm no proclaimer by the way)

.psd is just an uncmpressed file that Photoshop uses. No compression and seperate layers.

Today I finally took the time to look through each individual image, and to read your background information on each. Doing so I had, of course, a few comments I would like to make.

Overall I really like your images, they are all much better than the originals, both in the motive and the drawings, and in the fact that they have a common style.

So, notwithstanding what I write below, keeping an existing drawing instead of on of yours isn't an option. I'll use what you have done even if you don't change anything, but I think there is a few cards that could be even better.


Celestial Navigation vs Astronomy:
I like it, what does the rest of the people think?


Theism v.s. Deism
No clue, but I'm not afraid of renaming cards. More info/arguments please!


Mathematics:
Are you sure you did redraw it? Because it looks like an exact copy of the AH card, down to the not quite correctly placed hypotenuse.
Or perhaps you and AH just used the same ancient document as model...


Cloth Making:
Firstly, slightly OT, we didn't remove the commodity Cloth, we renamed it to the more general "Textiles".
Secondly, I think your ship doesn't quite show the importance of the sail, as it's so punitively small. Don't take me wrong, I like the image, but I think it could be even better...


Wonder of the World:
While I agree with your motive (the Pyramids), I don't quite like the drawing. Especially that one side is in shadow, while the building doesn't cast one...


Calendar:
I agree with the motive, but your drawing is a bit dark and "blurry". I'm sure you could do better...


Written Record, Literacy and Sculpture:
Firstly; I've not added a single advancement to the expansion. When I got abroad in early 2004 there was already 51 advances... I've been in charge of remaking and reworking a few, but not any of these.
So I can't say why they was introduced (Literacy wasn't introduced btw, it was kept from AdvCiv), but I can give my opinion on how I've interpreted them.

To me, Sculputure has always represented a simple work of art, for the watchers enjoyment, not some sort of recorded history.
Also, just as you speculate, it's supposed to be something bigger, and more impressive, suitable to place on a square, or in front on a building, not on a table.
As for the relation to tyranny, basically people are more willing to tolerate a tyrant if it gives them some enjoyment as a side effect (the same goes for modern politicians too, ever noticed all these populist election promises they give to stay in power). Perhaps a bit far-fetched, but that is how I have interpreted it anyway.

Written Record represents, imho, the early forms of book-keeping that the Sumerian did prior to actually inventing a written language (which they did simultaneously as, and independently from, they Egyptians). As such hieroglyphs on "Written Record" has never quite fit. In fact, neither does your new image, as it depicts the "the first historical document in the world" (quote from Wikipedia, emphasis mine), not "the first document in the world"...

Literacy, on the other hand, has to do with a more efficient way to preserve and spread knowledge, not the invention of writing down knowledge per see, as that came much earlier, and is what you have depicted for Written Record.

Note that this is all my personal opinions, and is not in any way official for CivProject. Your motives are just fine, if you want to keep them. I'm not overly fond of the Literacy image though, but I can't quite say what is wrong with it...


Democracy:
While I find the back story of broken pottery as ballots to be fascinating, I think the recognition factor is way too low, and a drawing of a voting assembly of some sort would be much better...


Trade Empire:
To me, a trade empire has basically been an empire based on trade, where the rulers didn't directly rule his "colonies", but influenced their actual rulers by the threat of not giving them any more favourable trade deals. However, I'm not sure if any such trade empire existed before the Hansa in late Medieval times.
In any case, I don't think your image shows the "trade" part of the "trade empire" properly.

Ever since this was an original advance, I think this is also a subject of "getting used to". As Astronomy hold much more than only navigation, it actually is not the right word, but we all got used to it. Maybe "Astronavigation" is a good compromise. This hold what it is, and still reflect the current naming. We could say the same for "Cloth Making" wich could be "Sail Making", but in fact, "Cloth making" is the key advance in history. "Navigation" and "Astronomy" are two seperate things, when cloth and sail go together in my opinion.


NO NO. THeism is a whole different thing than Deism. please check my findings again. I don't know if it shows the complete difference, but Theism is "The belief in the existence of one or more divinities or deities."
where Deism is "The belief in god or deity based on reason. It typically rejects supernatural events"
Ofcourse, we could use Theism, but looking to our game it would not reduce "superstition" where deism really does. (source: wikipedia)



Oh yeah, I can show you a picture of my original drawing paper, but I took the exact current card image for dummy. I could not find a better image to show the theorem. In fact, I'm not a mathematician. I actually don't know if the image shows the right markings, for I don't read latin either. Can you tell me what's wrong, It's easily moved.


I know, but I really meant the word "Cloth" which could be confusing for newcomers. Not for experienced players.



I think you're right. Let's see.



I could add some shadow on that. For the rest of the image, I do think it's right.



Ok, that would be a more abstract way of drawing the image. Like I've done with Atronomy. This one is more photorealistic, where the disc is a very dark one with a hole in it.


Ok. gimme a clue what the right image should be in your opinion, and I'll draw a new image, and redo the flavor text.



Ok, the same as written record. gimme a clue



I think you're right. Maybe this image will do for dummy:




I didn't invent the advance for the game, however I do disagree with you in this thing. Isn't that funny.

The international aspect of the card in the game isn't well reflected in you last explanation. Besides that, the international Trade Empire of the Minoan civilization was a highly developed one and very important, not to say nessesary to put man from stone age to bronze age.
This important and expensive is the card in our game, especially in the sixth trade card range, where hey "bronze", "copper" and "tin" are represented. (on purpose I guess) The lower commodities don't generate enough bonus and the higher ones aren't always fully represented in a single trading phase.
I really do think the right image for this card should show the empire of the minoans. Like I've drawn.

conclusion:

- Redraw democracy & adjust flavor text
- Redraw Calendar
- Redraw Cloth making
- Adjust Wonder of the World

optional:
- Redraw literacy & adjust flavor text
- Redraw written record & adjust flavor text

p.s.

Those have existed. Ever heard of the dutch VOC which is both adored as rejected by the dutch, as it would have helped increase slavery.
Hansa is international too byt the way. Dutch cities like Kampen, Zwolle and Deventer were part of the Hansa-clan.

And what about the silk-routes.

Regarding Astronomy:
I actually prefer Celestial Navigation over Astronavigation, but will go with whatever the majority of people think. Should perhaps start a poll.


Regarding Deism:
OK, then we'll keep the name. I was just confused about all the arguments and contra-arguments, and what stuff meant originally and means today.


Regarding Mathematics:
The hypotenuse should really begin in the middle of the circle for the image to make any sense. Regarding the "text" I have no clue what it actually mean, but I have seen the same image in a more modern version, with Swedish texts. Could see if I still have that school book in my bookshelves and give you a translation if you want.

Regarding Written Record:
The best image I can find is of a tablet recording beer delivery, from c:a 3 100 BC, though the same general principles had been used since 4 000 BC, and an earlier system with tokens in a pot had been used since 8 000 BC.

I've found two different text referring to the tablet, with different photos of it:
http://gbspapers.library.emory.edu/arch ... 05-015.pdf
http://www.ling.upenn.edu/courses/Fall_ ... iting.html

As well as a cartoon joke about it:
http://www.hinduonnet.com/businessline/ ... 111100.htm

Regarding Literacy
It's nothing wrong of what your drawing depictures, I just don't quite like the drawing. I think the picture is a bit too "flat". Most of the other images have a 3D feel, but this one is pure 2D. Also the text you have drawn doesn't feel like text, just a mess of markings.

Regarding Democracy:
Yes, that one should do it.

Regarding Trade Empire:
I didn't invent it either, but I always think of the Hansa when I hear "Trade Empire", as that was the trade empire that made the biggest impact on Sweden. I'm well aware that the Hansa was international, but it was ruled from Germany, and the German tradelords got quite a lot of influence in the Swedish cities that was part of the Hansa, and if they wanted something, they just had to name it and they got it, or we would be thrown out of the Hansa, and not be able to get any good trade deals with Europe. So that's why I think the Hansa fit the card. Of course, the Hansa is in the wrong time epoch, and I don't know if there was anything similar BC, or if the Minoan trade empire is the closest we'll get.

Anyway, while your image depictures the Minoan empire, it doesn't depicture the Minoan trade empire, if you understand the difference. There is nothing in the drawing even remotely connected to trade, only to empire. That's my problem with it.

I'll ask the people in my group personally. Most em don't want to register here, or won't even consider voting in any poll on the internet.

Regarding Mathematics:
Please give me a right image and i'll redo it. Otherwise... this imge has always worked.

Regarding Written Record:
Ok. I'm gonna read a bit. (not the pdf, too long) Think it'll work.



OK.


Well. It shows the links it has with the other islands. Do you have a better option?

I don't know anything about the "text" but the only "graphics" that is wrong is that the hypotenuse (diagonal line) should cross the x-axis (horizontal line) in the origin (centre of the circle), and not a few mm to the left.
This is really just a small and unimportant error, I only commented because I thought it funny that you would make the same error independently from AH, but as you basically copied the original card by hand, rather than remake it from scratch, it's quite understandable.


Not atm, but I'll start looking.

Almost threw my computer through the windows. I cannot explain, but all of a sudden I cannot upload any pics through imagevenue.com where all my pics were uploaded. When I tried several other image-uploaders, none of em did work.

So this time I used a ftp upload for these 3 files. Hope it'll work again later.




The word democracy derives from the ancient Greek "Demokratia" formed from the roots "Demos" (people) and "Kratos" (power). The Greek had a highly developed form of Democracy and invented the use of ballots (506 BC). A ballot is a device used to record choices made by voters. Preferential voting is a type of ballot structure in which voters rank a list or group of candidates in order of preference. Each year, the Greeks had a negative election where voters were asked to cast a vote for the politician they most wanted to exile. This system, called Ostracism prevented possible overthrows of a government and made sure that democracy will last.








"The Seven Wonders of the Ancient World" is a widely-known list of seven remarkable manmade constructions of classical antiquity. The Greek category was not "Wonders" but theamata, which translates closer to "must-sees". The historian Herodotus (484 BC–ca. 425 BC), and the scholar Callimachus of Cyrene (ca 305–240 BC) at the Museum of Alexandria, made early lists of "seven wonders" but their writings have not survived, except as references. The image shows the Great pyramid of Giza (2584-2465 BC) which is the oldest, biggest and only surviving "Wonder" of the ancient world.







A full calendar system has a different calendar date for every day. Thus the week cycle is by itself not a full calendar system; neither is a system to name the days within a year without a system for identifying the years. The ancient civil Egyptian calendar (4000 BC) had a year that was 365 days long and was divided into 12 months of 30 days each, plus 5 extra days at the end of the year. The months were divided into 3 "weeks" of ten days each. A highly developed calendar system like this made it possible to predict the seasons more accurate.

Great work! Hope your computer problems subside.

Anyway, I just noticed one thing. You said earlier that you want to depicture items as they looked when they where new, and not torn as they are today. I just noticed that your pyramid looks quite weather-torn...
Nothing wrong with your picture now, just that it doesn't comply with your own policy...

oh man, I never realized that. You're absolutely right.

BUT

The original list of the seven wonders of the world were made up at 480 BC by Herodotus and his scholar, when the piramid itself was allready 2000 years old by that time. So it can stay as image.

When they appear in the archeological record (about 2500 BC), the Sumerians had developed a system of icons inscribed on clay tablets for keeping temple records.
In this, these were similar to systems for record-keeping, based on symbolic tokens of many sorts, developed in many cultures over the millennia. The table whose picture is shown here shows a more sophisticated use of a numbering system.
These marks in the beginning may only have served to remind the writer of what he had once already known. However, another person could also read the record in the same way. As civilizations become more complex, record-keeping of this kind becomes increasingly important in order to keep commercial transactions straight.