If the Romans managed to import "fresh" Portuguese urine for mouthwash, I'm sure other "perishables" were more movable than you suspect. Especially since preservation tech was actually pretty good, not refrigeration good, but curing, drying, good. Of course, I don't play AdvCiv for historical correctness. To nit pick some more (thank you for all your thought provoking and good comments).

Glass certainly did exist. Glass blowing was invented around 1500 BC. Metal blow tubes became very common about 200 BC. Glass trade was a fairly large part of the Roman economy. What didn't exist is the ability to make plate glass (mechanical presses were invented in the 1820s). Which is why there were not mirrors, windows, etc. As far as the suggested alternatives go, Coffee wasn't cultivated until after 1000 AD. Sugar crystals hit India around 500 BC, and so would be a tad more probable.

The cards themselves are being worked on by other civproject posters and will hopefully be done soon...

Glass was certianly available...
http://wetcanvas.com/Articles2/10054/258/

Fruit and Fish were traded freqently back then... but only by close neighbors via ships. The shelf life wasn't very high but they weren't tradeing across the silk road for sure .

Tin was around:
http://www.geo.vu.nl/archaeometry/abstr ... ltopic.pdf

Eventually, yea, some of your suggestions Dalamant sound good. We'll have to wait for the next release though! Thank Daryl for the graphics there... he did a great job!

I want to thank everyone involved with this project, especially John; it's an extraordinary game and I appreciate the continued energy put into refining and expanding the original work. One question: My favorite component of the system is commodity cards. Does anyone have a curent list of cities representing the Trade Cities from the AH variant. I've got them for the original maps, but need them for the eastern panels. . . thanks.

RL

I stand corrected about the glass, and I must say, I am rather impressed regarding your knowledge of historical trade trivia. I was certain coffee stretched further into antiquity than 1000 A.D. - but, if you're right, you're right. I was wondering about tobacco, since we're on the subject of ancient labor practices, etc. My thoughts on sugar were of sugar canes (which certainly predated humanity), not of crystals, which I had already considered. I still must contest your contention concerning the trade of fish and fruit, however.. I'm just not certain perishables would have been so readily traded across many hundreds or thousands of miles in a day when packing and curing for purposes of preservation was not so advanced.. but then, I'm not an expert on historical accuracies regarding trade and the like; however, it seems YOU are certainly concerned with such precision herein - which makes me wonder why you would make such a remark as that you don't "play the game for historical correctness".. even if that were true, which it clearly cannot be, since you debate the very intricacies thereof in your posting, it would be absurd to design a historical game entitled "Civilization" without a considerable degree of historicity. If it is not to be correct, why don't we simply allow players to invent computers in 2000 B.C. and be done with it? Otherwise, I suggest those of us who respect knowledge, and models of reality that are consistent with the claims they make to truth, continue to strive toward excellence and perfection in every endeavor we attempt, if we are to achieve a mark of admirability in even the least of our resulting "products". If one is to attempt any pursuit, let him do it entirely, and to the utmost of his ability, lest it be worthy of none. But then, I'm a perfectionist, and one who enjoys complexity and things that are wise, thorough, and precise.

K J K Dalamant

I'm a little unclear on who you are addressing, me or Mcbeth... but I'll answer the question anyway!

Fish and Fruit (ala olives, peppers and dried fruits) WERE traded in the ancient world, just not over long voyages. So obviously it is a little unrealitic to say that the Iberians import Babylonian Dried fruit, but for closer neighbors it was very viable.

Fish:
http://www.kat.gr/kat/History/Txt/El/Me ... tCargo.htm
(very interesting article)

Fruit:
http://www.raisins.org/history.html
http://www.galenfrysinger.com/damascus_syria.htm
http://www.allaboutgreekwine.com/wineries/emery/
http://www.naturalhub.com/natural_food_ ... common.htm

I would assume that he was addressing me with the "play the game for historical correctness", as that was from me. Of course, I have done none of the designing of this game, and am just a play tester.

Tobacco would be right out as it is a western hemisphere plant, first brought to the old world with Columbus' returning ships.

It looks like I need to clarify my history comment. I love history, and like to learn all I can. I like to play games that have historical flavor. On the other hand, I have little patience for people who see games as history first, and game second. I'm in it to have fun. If talking about a game lets me learn more about history, then good; but, it is a secondary concern to me. For example, before you started commenting, I had assumed that coffee was a western hemisphere plant like potatoes, tomatoes, and tobacco. Thank you for the opportunity to learn.

I tried to do a decent amount of research when coming up with a decent list of trade goods. Since this was for an eastern expansion, I primarily looked at things that were traded on the Silk Road. To the best of my knowledge, every commodity I made was traded in ancient times.

Yes, my last reply was to mcbeth. I concede that fruit and fish were tradable among relatively close neighbors; my only concern was that if trade thereof were allowed generally, potentially infeasible trades would take place among more distant partners. Nonetheless…

Very well.. I withdraw the majority of my somewhat accusatory comments - I will admit that I am not at all familiar with ancient Middle and Far Eastern history; I was simply assuming that general principles would apply broadly, since some of the proposed commodities (among other things) seemed at first unreasonable. Yet, for this I apologize, and stand corrected. I was merely trying to be helpful in a discussion that appeared as though it was desirous of correction or accuracy, with regard to which, however, I was clearly incorrect. I shall from this point forward speak only on matters of which I have a considerable degree of knowledge, which obviously does not include the historicity of commodity trade. Hence, I will forgive mcbeth's impatience with me (implicitly; my "type" to be more precise to his reference) for simply pursuing knowledge and accuracy within a game designed to reflect historical reality to a significant extent, if I may be forgiven for my presumption and somewhat confrontational "accusation".

I do thank all who have contributed to the furtherance of knowledge in this discussion, as it has enhanced my own understanding, and convinced me of your dedication to a carefully conceived game, which is all that may be asked of the (re)constructive work of any diligent creator. To all who have read this and participated herewith, thank you for considering my words, albeit with a grain of salt, if that be the case. I realize there exists a community here, which is to be constructive and not competitively disruptive or argumentative – the nature of my proposals were not in coincidence with the spirit of such a culture, and for this dissention, I also apologize. I will attempt to positively contribute according to the social atmosphere of this wonderful sub-public as often as I darken the “halls” of its dominion, so far as I am able. Thank you for your patience, have you any to spare.

K J K Dalamant

One more thing, Velusion: in your gracious replies, thank you so very much for adding those informative links (though I have not yet explored them); I love learning the history of any of these interesting facts - I am thoroughly impressed that you have such truly relevant knowledge so very readily available. Truly, kudos to you and all that are working to create this magnificent NEW game (as I would certainly dub it an entirely new, creditable work thus far), to a community of dedicated and enraptured gamers - indeed, a fellowship of sorts - even as it is done so completely FREE, and of your own will and apparent pleasure in doing so. Truly a blessing you are to such a body of devotees anxious to experience this endeavor at its fullest potential. My commendations!

K J K Dalamant

Well thanks for the kind words Dalamant!

As far as the tone of the posts, don't worry about it. Many of us here just love Adv Civ so much we are passionate about what the final result of the project should look like. No worries about people being judgemental. The best part of these discussions for me is the history you learn and new things you find out, rather than just the game mechanics anyway!

Indeed! I am more inspired by the spirit of your community here with every day I visit! Thank you so much for that, and on behalf of my fellow gamers.. I am much of a history fan as well, which is why I am so intrigued by this game and its many possibilities.. the more expansive they become, the greater my joy; those in my little group feel the same, and we're always looking for ways to enhance the experience. This place has more than allowed such a fruitful journey. To all herein of the same mind: Onward triumphant!

K J K Dalamant

I appear to have given offense. For that, I am sorry. I have always considered myself to be more aware of my tone than most that post on the internet, but experiences of the last two weeks would point to the opposite being true. I greatly appreciate the input you have been giving to the project lately and hope you will continue to do so. I would hate to know that I managed to drive _anybody_ away from this work.

My still misunderstood, misdirected comment about history and gaming perhaps needs even more clarification. Advanced Civilization is my favorite game in my collection. Every once in a while, someone comes up with a variant where you are only allowed to trade with people adjacent to you, because that is more reasonable, or something. Rules that break a game in the name of historicity are an anathema to me. Then there are the people who refuse to play a game like "Montgomery's Gamble: Market Garden" because there is one more armoured car in the board game than in real life (and refuse to take the car out to make themselves happy). These are the kind of people I have no patience for. You, on the other hand, have done none of these things. On the contrary, I have learned more about ancient trade in the last couple weeks due to your questions than I knew in the first place.

Thank you
Jeff

All I am providing is play test experience for the eastern civs. My opinions are not those of active members of this project. Most of my opinions are not even true expressions of my opinions

Haha.. I enjoyed your last remark there, mcbeth. I can only say thank you for your considerate and generous response. Any offense I experienced was probably simply amplified by my own discontent. Nonetheless, apology accepted, and I am more than willing to continue to exchange ideas with you on an amicable basis. I have learned much recently, too, as a result of input from you, Velusion, and others, partly in response to my inquiries (among other things, that I STILL speak to quickly to justify the minimal knowledge I may possess). The spirit of your conduct would certainly drive none away, as I will yet henceforth make my best attempts at positive contributions, to this inspiring community and project, as ever before.

K J K Dalamant

I defenitely think that slaves should be added to the list of commodities, shouldn't it ? I think that pottery has been mentioned before and should also be added.

Slaves were quite valuable so I guess it could replace Herbs or tea.

Anyway it would be nice to see some graphics on the latest commodities....

Here are the ones I've made

http://home.comcast.net/~dcluciano/AdvCiv.html
http://home.comcast.net/~dcluciano/Horses.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~dcluciano/Perfume.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~dcluciano/Slaves.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~dcluciano/Incense.bmp

I'd be happy to do more or modify any existing ones, if needed or desired.