I'm starting to worry if perhaps Naval Warfare is not powerful enough. It would seem that having the ability to sink others ships might not be worth 180 points...

What does everyone else think?

Just a thought but in the games I have played the leading player near the end of the game tends to get hammered by others trying to reduce his cities so he does not advance. Having the navel warfare could help in sinking ships that would potentially take tokens to attack the leaders cities. However the rules do not state wether the ships are sunk after all movement or as soon as a ship comes within the same area as an enemy ship (I would assume after all movement). This would not help stop someone using the ship to attack anothers city with tokens as the tokens are unloaded during the players move.

To be worth buying you would have to sink enemy boats as soon as you moved within the same area wether or not the opposing player has moved allready or not. You would of course want to move first to sink the boats before he uses them to transport tokens.

Sorry just read more in the rules about ship movement. I was looking under the Civ card before. It is actually quite powerful in that you could possibly form a blockade against other ships from getting to some if not all of your cities depending on nation you played and where you stationed your ships. Crete would have great trouble stopping opponents from attacking some of his cities where as maybe Thrace could station a few ships to block attackers fairly effectively.

You got it! Also consider this... Crete doesn't just have to keep their ships in their own coastal area's to protect them... they can just as easily keep them in their enemies coastal areas and simply attack any ship that is built (depending on how much coastal areas there is). Its true that in a free for all empires like Crete could never cover the seas enough to protect from enemy ships from every civ. But on a one-on-one war Crete might very well be able to blockade good portions the enemy’s coastal areas.

A concern of mine, related to Naval Warfare, is that in forming an effective blockade it's a bonus to move first, thus invalidating the assumption that it's always best to move last.

This is due to the fact that Naval Warfare introduces battles-as-you-move, as opposed to the normal way of resolving battle simultaneously after all movement.

Would it be a solution to add another effect to the Naval Warfare advance, enabling you to move ships in a special non-transporting-ships-move-only phase, then followed by the normal movement phase? Note that moving in this special phase would count as the ship's move for the turn, and would not allow you to transport tokens at all. Also, ships involved in combat should not be allowed to move after combat (though they could still wait in the same area, destroying other ships that tried to pass the same square), else you could (with Cloth Making) race around and destroy 5 areas' worth of opposing ships... That would be too powerful again, wouldn't it?

Hmmm.. Well its not "battles-as-you-move" Because players that go last can move in other ships to reinforce or destory.

Blockades *might* be effective but I have yet to see it successfully done where it was worth the expense.

It is still benificail to go last with NW as long as you are trying to destroy ships. You are right in that you could go first helps you slip through coastal area's that can't be blockated... but those ships are probably toast.

I dunno.. I want to see how it runs in a test first before I change anything major.

You're right, it's not "battles-as-you-move", but "interrupted movement". Anyways, your own movement phase has now possibly become interactive, and that's already a major concept change, really. And as I pointed out, it could make moving last a disadvantage, given the right circumstances.

Play testing is always a good thing, tho. Just don't get so used to this, that you stop realizing it actually is a concept change.

Just a sidenote on Naval Warfare: The Naval Warfare card in the download says "allows Naval Warfare". While I know what it means, it's kind of odd to read this on the card with the very same name...

Why all this Naval Warfare topic reminds me about AH's Enemy in Sight?
Anybody remembers it?

Could be a slow-but-funny way to solve Naval Warfare.

Raffaele

I've been thinking about this. You are correct in that is it a concept change... and I'm not sure I want to do this.

What if - *ok yea I know.. major change* we switch the special power to "Half (round down) of all tokens landing on (attacking) a city via ships are returned to stock when debarking unless the opposing player also holds Naval Warfare."

Does that sound worth a 180 civ card?

I am thinking about a major change for Naval Warfare.
This change reflects my idea that wars are made by men, not by ships and that there have been civilizations using sea to increase their own power.

I'll try to put it as rule changes since it is easier for me to explain it this way.

Add rule 19.11: Token over ships never expand.

Change rule 22.55: Ships may end their movement in any water area they can reach regardless of whose ships or tokens also occupy the area.

Add rule 22.551: Only ships of a nation with Naval Warfare may volutarily end their move in an open sea area. Ships starting their move from an open sea area may only land in this turn.

Change rule 22.56: When entering an area that contains another players ship, that other player may choose to stop the current players ship provided he holds Naval Warfare.

Change rule 22.561: A Sea Conflict similar to Land Conflicts starts.
Only tokens over ships are involved.

Delete rule 22.562.

Change rule 24.11: Sea conflicts may occur only between tokens over ships. Tokens on land and cities have no effect in Sea Conflicts.

Change rule 24.12: A ship involved in a sea conflict that remains without embarked tokens is eliminated and returned to stock.

Add rule 24.121: Players without Metalworking remove all tokens over ships and lose the conflict.

Change rule 24.13: Players remove one token at a time alternately until only one player's tokens remain in the area. A conflict may not end in co-existence. The player with the fewest number of tokens removes first.

Change rule 24.14: Players with Naval Warfare remove their tokens after players who do not hold Naval Warfare, regardless of the number of their tokens as compared to other players. Conflict between players who both hold Naval Warfare is resolved normally.

Change rule 24.15: If the ship stopped wins the conflict it may continue its travel using the remaining movement points.

Add rule 26.33: Tokens over ships does not count for city support.

Add rule 30.315: Tokens over ships can't be removed because of Famine.

Add rule 30.334: Tokens over the removed ships are returned to stock.

Add rule 30.418: Tokens over ships are not involved in Civil War.

Add rule 30.526: Rokens over ships may not be attacked by Barbarian Hordes.

Change rule 30.612: The primary victim must reduce three of his coastal cities exposed to the Cyclone. All other players must each reduce two of their coastal cities exposed to the Cyclone. All ships in coastal areas affected by the Cyclone are returned to stock. All tokens over these ships are returned to stock.

Add rule 30.625: Tokens over ships are involved in Epidemic. Remove two of them for each point of reductions. Ships may remain with no token left and in this case they are lost and returned to stock.

Add rule 30.634: Tokens over the destroyed ships are returned to stock.

Add rule 30.76: Tokens over ships are not involved in Tribal Conflicts.

Add rule 30.816: Tokens over ships are not involved in Tiranny.

Add rule 30.832: Tokens over ships are not involved in Minor Uprising.

I think I considered all possible changes.

Any considerations or thoughts?

Raffaele

Lotsa changes here... let me think on it...

Seeing you're still thinking about my proposal I'd add some more reasons to take my changes.

It is more Civilization-like.

You could introduce them in two steps:
The first step includes all rules but open sea battles (also rules that allow ending a movement in open sea and having tokens on ships in phases other than movement).

The second step is to try them all together.

Raffaele