A General question on governments: I haven't read the new rulebook in great detail as of yet, so this may already be answered, but what happens when a player purchases multiple government cards? A civilization cannot reasonably be said to be a monarchy and a democracy at once, thus becoming subject to both the benefits and maladies of the several governments they are represented to have instituted; so which one do they adopt - The most recent card purchased? This would be unreasonable, as anyone first purchasing democracy might wish to never purchase monarchy; however, it cannot be that the "most advanced" form of government is adopted, for which is that? No government may be said to be inherently superior, although we may consider the advantages and disadvantages of them all. Therefore, I propose that every civilization maintain a governmental status (with despotism as its default), selecting among those advances (civ cards) it has acquired, and retaining only the active effects of that presently chosen. All other effects, civ card categories, credits, etc. would remain latent until use, but each government type would confer certain distinct benefits and drawbacks, discrete from all others. For example, some players I game with have nodded to my proposal that democracy, with coinage, would allow taxation to vary among each city, representative of independent city-states of the true ancient democracies, since democracies in their ancient form may only have existed truly and purely in the limited populations of those city-states (i.e. Greece)

K J K Dalamant

On Monarchy: As a cheap civic, the designer proposed in his brief that this new civ card be a potential alternative to the routine literacy that is required to advance into the third age. I must contest this point, however, and point out the intent of the original designers of Advanced Civilization that a people, or a civilization, must certainly be literate to feasibly continue along their path toward technological and cultural advancement; it would be nearly impossible to conceive of any organized society existing with such advanced institutions as government and higher sciences, such as philosophy, without the prerequisite of being able to read, write, and discuss ideas in their abstracted and elaborated forms. Socrates' dialectic would never have come to pass, I assure, without the "invention" of literacy; hence, philosophy cannot rationally exist without its predecessor, the written language, or what F. de Saussure calls "parole", and, furthermore, no other science may truly blossom without its chief precursor, philosophy. Thus, it seems monarchy must require something else as its forebear, potentially meaning that literacy must antecede any government type. However, price should not be a limit, as I agree with your cost of 80 credits for the purchase of monarchy.

Furthermore, on Monarchy: It would seem that monarchy is no different from mere despotism if only a civic; the fundamental distinction separating monarchy from the former, that of despotism or tyranny, is the divine right of rule. Though the modern conception of the divine right of rule may have originated in pre-enlightenment Early Modern European societies (especially such as France, i.e. King Louis the XIV, the "Sun God", the impetus for the palace of Versailles), after the highly developed state of monotheistic theology, ancient civilizations such as Egypt, which worshipped its pharoahs as gods incarnate, expressed undying allegiance to their monarchic rulers and their dynasties because of the populous' belief that such sovereigns were divinely appointed and thus infallible - the very embodiment and representation of society itself, in its purest and wisest form. As such, I propose that monarchy become one of several things: 1.) a civic and a religion (although a fellow player advised me that this would make it an exceedingly powerful advance, which I tend to agree with, although mysticism is a dual-category card costing only 50, so monarchy might not be so unfair thus; 2.) a civic that necessitates one specific, or any type of religion card; or 3.) a civic with the prerequite(s) of (2), but which also contributes religion credits. Other combinations are conceivable, but these are my ideas, and it seems, at any rate, that “religion” must have some part in monarchy to properly define it apart from its absolutist cousin, despotism (which is default).

Lastly, on Monarchy: Though it is aptly mentioned that monarchy should contribute to military and naval warfare as a "natural predecessor", I would take issue with this by simply recognizing that militaries long preexisted monarchies, as did navies. However, I acknowledge that monarchies did rely heavily upon military power, thus contributing to its advancement. As such, credits toward military and naval warfare should certainly derive from monarchy, although, given their antecedence to monarchy, I would suggest that those advancements, in turn, contribute to monarchy, as yet another component in the equation of the development of kingly rule.

K J K Dalamant

New Civ Card Suggestion: Republic - credit cost 120-140, Civic with prerequisites(?): allows similar tax increase to monarchy. The purpose and full entailments of this advance are currently under scrutiny in my mental manufacturing plant, but republics (albeit few) did exist among the ancient world, and should be considered feasible thus.

K J K Dalamant

New Civ Card Suggestion: Aristocracy - Credit cost 100, Civic, requires a government (i.e. monarchy, theocracy, democracy, republic), and confers distinctly different benefits to each government type (i.e. enhances military effectiveness in monarchy, representing the warrior class of the original monarchic aristocratic elites; or permits usury [interest loans] under a republic, allowing enhancement of wealth - treasury - but causing corruption, resulting in civil unrest of some type - aristocracy would also aggravate the squandered wealth calamity thus; the corruption calamity would allow theocracies to utilize the effects of usury for one turn [if possessing aristocracy?]) With philosophy, aristocracy would function as an independent government type (i.e. Plato's philosophical discussion of the hypothetical aristocracy ), with benefits and consequences uncertain. The details of this advance are not yet solidified, but it would seem to present an interesting new element, also representing a historical concept.

K J K Dalamant

Lots to talk about!

Well the general argument I could make about governments in advanced Civ is that the simple fact that a system of government is available allows some of it's benifits to shine through. Of course... this is not exactly a strong arguement. Your proposal (very much in the Sid Meirer's Civ vein) is workable, however it adds yet another level of complexity to the game and it would also require the entire advance credit system be reworked (or, at the very least, those advances that touch on the governments).

Right now I'm contemplating a more complex version of the expansion to be used by "monster gamers" and for PBEM. This is something that could be included in that version but not, I think, in the normal one.

If and when I put out some new cards (which will be awhile) I've alrady decided that Republic will be included. Actually.. I think I'll make it more expenseive... since it came (usually) after Democracy.

I'll have more to say about Monarchy soon...

I appreciate your response to my postings, even as I am not such an experienced Advanced Civ player as you obviously are, to truly know what should and should not be added. First off, I just found your website about 2 weeks ago, and I simply want to congratulate you on your tremendous efforts thus far, as well they are excellent, and well thought-out additions to an already fantastic game; thank you for all your hard work - I and my gaming allies are much obliged!

Your comments regarding complexity with active government types is undoubtedly true - I simply thought it the best way to simultaneously represent both the knowledge and the application of governments as societal institutions. Fortunately, I and my gamers love complexity; unfortunately, we are not all too familiar with credit balances, as you mentioned, so I'm not always certain what needs to be changed when one new thing is added.

I am pleased to see you also already thought of adding republic, and I would actually agree with you - republics did follow democracies, although I think only subsequently and not consequently. I believe I was mistaken in the credit cost in that regard, though I must say that the republic does present two foreseeable problems: 1.) If the republic advance costs more than the democracy, will players be able to purchase it soon enough to truly utilize it and justify its purchase?; and 2.) republics did come later in history - does the timeframe of Advanced Civ encompass such a span of time as to allow it? (actually, I believe this latter question is of no concern, as I believe the game runs right up to 250 A.D. (on the AST), or something similar, long after the Roman republic was established and globally powerful.

It seems the republic might only be useful in a game of “Imperial Civilization” - a suggested variant in the Advanced Civ manual – in which each civilization is twice as large (up to 18 cities). Of course, this was the purpose of the republic historically anyway – representatives of an expansive populous so as to govern large empires such as Rome (and hence truly constitute precursors to modern democratic republics), and such as would be represented by 18-city civilizations in Advanced Civ.

K J K Dalamant

The new varient I'm thinking of totally eliminates the token counter limit and creates rule for vassal civilizations...

*still fermenting in my mind*

Wow - sounds fascinating! I shall eagerly await the fruits of that contemplation...

K J K Dalamant