Having played about 15 complete civ. games, it seems to me that Iberia and Africa never even stand a chance of winning. Perhaps I just have not played enough.

In the end, I don't care if I win, but it seems that each civilization ought to have a good chance. If I want to win, I choose babylon and hope for a good neighbor to the north. If I want a challenge, I choose Crete, and if I want a severe hopeless challenge, i choose Africa.

Maybe this is just old hat: I've not participated in any discussions about this. Maybe I'm just not strategic enough (although my group of civ players usually says "Jacques wins every time" despite the fact that I have won only a handful of times: I stopped being a conservative nurterer, started having more fun, and started losing).

Is anyone else bothered by this aspect of the game?
Has anyone tried to do anything about it?

The Dynamics of this game are really differnt. Africas main oppenent Egypt is now threated from the south and pressured even more from Palastine.

Hmm... I suppose I never thought Ibera was weak though...

I think Iberia's biggest problem is that he has plenty of good agricultural land, but the land near city sites tends to be fairly low valued making it more difficult to rebuild from calamities and unlike Africa, it isn't so easily sea acessible. I also often find myself needing to abandon sections of land to try and keep Iberia's economy of tokens more dynamic. I think it takes some fairly significant changes in how you play to be effective as Iberia. Of course, I've been playing this game fairly regularly since 1993, and have seen every country go on to win, except for the one I happen to be controlling.

One thing to realize about this new version is that it is ALOT harder to get to 9 cities.. there simply is not enough real-estate to go around. This has a number of side effects such as Civil War not being near as powerful.

Really... you need to play a full game with the expansion to know what I mean. Though the rules are %90 the same the game *feels* a bit different if you are used to played civ alot.

I'm looking forward to the upcoming game at redscape. Now if only I could get this report done so I can think civ again.

Wait until you see the latest rules... lots of major tweaks!

I should have them up today or tomorrow.

I've been able to win as Africa, and in some games, I was a top contender. Here's some advice:

* Africa MUST be expansionistic. Grab Cloth Making and Astronomy early (especially Astronomy!). Sicily? Yours without contest. Cyrene? Definitely your birthright. When I've been successful as Africa, I was able to claim southern Italy (the others don't really want the volcano site, do they?), Corsica and Sardinia, Ithaca, and Cyprus. The Balaeres are yours, too.

* Africa must be flexible. Don't think of yourself as having borders, but as having potential areas to survive. Africa tends to have a low population, so it's reasonable to be able to move units out of potential conflict areas into safe zones after everyone else, or at least the ones that can threaten you the most. Don't be afraid to fight where you must, but being ready to shift your focus around the Mediterranean gives a lot of strength.

* Africa should be diplomatic and facilitative. I once was able to help Egypt explode across the Levant, and I filled in the Nile behind him.

* Avoid Slave Revolt and Barbarian Hordes like the plague. Go scientific; Astronomy, Coinage, and Medicine benefit Africa immensely, moreso than most other powers; the Arts aren't nearly as valuable in the early game.

As Africa, you'll be lean, hungry, and scrappy the entire game. But you CAN be lean, hungry, scrappy, and holding onto nine cities for a number of turns.

While I haven't tried Iberia in on the ACEP map yet, Iberia definitely has a potential in the original game. The initial tactis I use is to shoot east as fast as possible (while protecting backfield) into the Italian pennisuala, usually splitting it with someone. (Iberia can be in Erutia on turn 4.) I don't plan on keeping terrority there long term, and it makes a good diplomatic plot to give it up when it is not needed. I usually build wilderness cities earlier and more frequently with Iberia than with other nations.

The water area in the NW will change from something of a protected safe haven to something quite a bit more vulnerable with the ACEP map, but that map has more city sites and more terorrity so hopefully it'll balance.

On Africa, I don't play it frequently, but it has possibilities as well.

I've also seen Africa win, but only once (out of perhaps 20 times). And I must agree that the thread starter has a point - initial starting positions has a great impact on your game, and you've got to have lots of experience in order to do a winning game with Africa. Generally Egypt and Babylon is easy to play, and "always" ends up in the top four (of 8 players).

I'd love to see some balancing done here, but I've not though much on it yet, myself.

Egypt have never done quite as well since Nubia was introduced...

Babylon is good... but constrained.

I'm VERY curious as to how India plays out...

We will see! *rubs his hands*