In our March playtest, Crete got a bad start because it is placed earlier than Illyria/Thrace/Hatti in the AST order. Velusion, what are your thoughts behind this change from the original game? I don't see why Crete should move before these barbarian nations in the crucial turn of landing in mainland Greece.

Hmm.. this is a good point.... My gut tells me to move it down but give me a little bit to think on it...

Hmmm.. After thinking about it...

Could you go into more detail as to how changing the order would make them go before them?

Crete has to sacrifce population to build a boat, which almost always makes it go last. How did it work out that they went first?

Well, Crete would still go first in the round they built their first boat, as Census is before boat construction.

I personally was always partial to how AST order was clockwise from Africa in AdvCiv, but I certainly see why we do it the way we do.

Ahhh... so for that one turn.

I'm not sure that is bad though... being able to claim the land before others move would seem nicer. In that case I'd probably RATHER go first.

Well, moving first is of course nice, but only if the others take the hint. A deal between Thrace/Illyria to each sacrifice 1 token to kill a total of 4 Cretans would send Crete back to the stoneage with only two tokens left. Of course if Crete lands further South or in Turkey this isn't an issue but the mere threat can force Crete to use a more defensive strategy, which places an already weak situation at even more of a disadvantage. Another solution could be to give Crete one free boat in turn 3 (automatically destroyed afterwards) to make it stronger.

I side with McBeth. Back to clockwise AST.
Just... what clockwise is now that starting areas are not on borders?

Trying:
Chartage, Iberia, Rome, Illyria, Thrace, Crete, Asia, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Chorasmia, Kushan, Indus, Maurya, Dravidia, Arabia, Nubia, Egypt.

Raffaele
Goblin's lair

My suggestion:

Carthage
Iberia
Rome
Illyria
Thrace
Hatti
Crete
Assyria
Babylon
Chorasmia
Persia
Kushan
Indus
Maurya
Dravidia
Arabia
Nubia
Egypt

Didn't see Porrini's post... only difference between ours is that I place Crete after Hatti as well. Also, Chorasmia before Persia.

When I'm not caring about AST order, I adjucate the following order (definitely not clockwise) (and not my suggested order)

Carthage
Iberia
Rome
Illyria
Thrace
Crete
Hatti
Assyria
Egypt
Nubia
Arabia
Babylon
Persia
Chorasmia
Kushan
Indus
Maurya
Dravidia

That is scary when I can actually visualize all your suggestions without looking.

Jeff

I definitely forgot Hatti in my order.

Raffaele
Goblin's lair

Well if they both decide to lose tokens to drop below crete there is nothing that can be done in the AST.

I'm not going to do the free boat (that was debated awhile ago). Crete would have a GREAT position if they had a free maintence free boat. They are already have a pretty secure position and a great AST.

Well, I didn't mean they would lose tokens to drop below crete. They would just march south with their eight tokens each. And when Crete lands they kill 2 cretans each (losing 1 each). Then they are on 7 (to 14) with crete on 2 (to 4). Even if they sacrifice 1 each to kill 1 cretan each crete cannot afford these losses in that round and hence MUST go east. But I agree the boat idea makes Crete too powerful.

/Vidar

Well either way they will best Crete if they make a concerted effort...

Not really, if Crete moves last it won't lose the tokens.