I would love to PBEM, but I use a MAC and I noticed that the cyberboard download was an .exe file. Is there any way I can join the reindeer games?

-Matt

Not every game uses Cyberboard (see redscape.com for games that don't), but cyberboard is a no-go on Mac (unless you have a new fancy MacIntel, in which case Wine might work).

Myself I'm using Linux, and though Cyberboard does work in Wine, it has a few irritating problems (such as all menues, popup as well as regular, is empty), so though it it's possible to play, and I will complete the game I'm currently in, I won't join another cyberboard game.

VASSAL is on my exceedingly long list of things I want to do to help. I must agree with Jonno, Cyberboard is a nonstarter. I got into Aloowishius' (or whatever his name is) run through of Hellas, and while I'll play to end, it is more frustrating to play than anything I've done before. I've talked to some of the people that have dropped out, and they came up with the same complaints independently.

If you want to PBeM core AdvCiv, write me and I'll add you to the waiting list for the next game on Redscape (we have several on the list already, so the wait shouldn't be too long). We do that pure e-mail with me keeping all the records that get updated each night. If you want to play in a CivProject scenario, I'll start another as soon as A Dos Metros ends. Which may be a while.

Jeff

I forgot to mention, you can get Cyberboard working in Mac VirtualPC, but it is horribly annoying. (I'm a Linux/OSX only household myself)

If you are impatient for a CivProject game I'll GM one starting March or April, but aren't completely sure of the details yet. I won't use cyberboard, but might (if I get it working propperly) use a compurerized trade-manager (so trades can go through instantly, instead of ones or twice a day). That would be a 100% web based tool though, running in all browser, including Mozilla (and derivates Firefox/SeaMonkey/Camino), Konqueror (and derivate Safari), Opera and IE, thus not locking out any user.
If I don't get this toy project of mine working in time I'll do it "The MacBeth way" instead.
As a player in ADM I must say:
Thank you Jeff!
PBEM with you is great!

Hi all !

After reading this post and as Cyberboard user and gameboxes designer I have to really disagree with your comments.
I can understand those linux or Mac users having technical problems, it's true Cyberboard software (despite being freeware) is thought for windows users, but nowadays it's also true that for PBEM it's the best tool available ( Thanks again to Dale Larson for his amazing work, I'm really a big fan of his work ! ).
VASSAL it's a real good software mainly for playing real time games, it also has an option to play PBEM recording the turns in the same way as cyberboard, but in my opinion works worse than cyberboard. VASSAL it's an amazing application to play games online with few players, but not to play an advanced civilization game with for example 9 or 14 players during 8 hours, problems to do this online I think are obvius. I was working in a vassal module for adv. civi but after playing other games and seeing the way of working I centered myself in Cyberboard.
To play a good Cyberboard game you only need two things :
- Serious PBEM gamers ( I suppose this is the same playing PBEM through a forum )
- Due to the complexity of the game it's essential to have a very good game planification, with a detailed documentation and a gamemaster ready to clarify all the different doubts and to correct incoming mistakes with the help of ALL the players.( I suppose again this will be also the same playing PBEM through a forum ).
Cyberboard movements and cards setups are transparent for all players and everyplayer interacts with their tokens and cards, increasing the fun.
At this time I'm playing my second PBEM game using Cyberboard software, we are finishing the EAST GAME and playing the HELLENIZATION BETATEST.
The EAST GAME it's probably in its last turn and we will finish it this month ( we began the game at the end of July, 2005 ), after only seven months of playing.
I guess that all EAST GAME players have enjoyed it because all of them have asked to play again and most of them are also playing Hellenization betatest. My greatest thanks to all these players who have made this Cyberboard game so wonderful!.
Anyway I reckon there is no black or white, all PBEM playing methods are good if players enjoy them so let's give a chance for all.
Personally I prefer Cyberboard PBEM gaming over other ones but I don't discard other ways of enjoying PBEM, if you have a room for me in your future PBEM games I will gladly try to enjoy the experience.

Best regards.

Jon G.
www.civiboard.com/hellas/index.html

Well, my main problem with Cyberboard is the "technical difficulties". Try to use Cyberboard without menues yourself... (The menues are actually there, fully functional, you just can't see any options but the one you got the mouse pointing at. Overview by-by).

However, in addition I do think using Cyberboard is quite cumbersome, at least compared to the MacBeth way. I do realize that GMing without any tool such as Cyberboard causes more job for the GM, in adition to makeing it imposible for the GM to play the same game, but as a player I'd prefer the MacBeth way over Cyberboard even if I was using Windows, and as I'm not, it's a no-brainer.

I have never used VASSAL, so I can't comment on it vs. Cyberboard.

As for "no black or white", I can't agree more, I'm just saying that *I* won't join another Cyberboard game, for the reasons stated above. I'll reserve a spot for you in my upcomming game, if you are still interested when it starts.

I understand your problems, I would be lost without the menues.
I haven't played using the MacBeth way but I would like. I'm always opened to new proposals.
Anyway reserve that spot for me in you incoming game, I would play gladly another way of PBEM civilization.

Best regards

Jon G.
www.civiboard.com/hellas/index.html

Split this from the main thread, as we was going way offtopic.

I played in a few cyberboard games but never ran a civ game in cyberboard before. I have to say that I don't own a Mac, so I can't really identify with the frustrations that entails. I find cyberboard to be an amazing program, very robust and well designed. As for civ and cyberboard, the jury is still out. I run my game (as Mcbeth will atest) VERY different than the standard redscape.com way. I try and simulate a real time civ game as much as possible. This is better suited to more hardcore players. I have even gone so far as to use the chat in yahoo groups for trading. Works quite well actually, although it's better if more players show up.

I don't think I could play in a cyberboard game where I wasn't moving pieces around, isn't that the point?

The problem isn't limited to Mac, but exists on all OS but Windows...


So does the redscape.com way, taking timezones into consideration. Players live on both sides on the Atlantic, and most players have job/school during daytime, making it imposible to do moves etc more than two or three times a day. Combine this with the timezones, and you are limited to 6 inputs per day, 18 players, and movement just took 3 days.


A game always runs faster if players play 24/7, or close to it, no matter of method used.


For players in different timezones this is even worse, as going by chat will disable people form other timezones to trade with you. In both games I'm in (one with Cyberboard and one without) it usually 24 hours between first mail and trade done. Actually in this case Cyberboard hinders rather than helps, as you can't do conditionals (stuff like "do this trade with Y after the trade with X. If X gave me a calamity as third card, give it as third card to Y, else give a Z") but actually has to wait for the GM to complete the trade before sending the next.


We are moving pieces around using the redscape.com way as well. The difference is how we communicate these moves. Cyberboard uses some binary data on pixels positions and the redscape.com way uses plain English. If you need to visually move tokens, just pull out your printed copy (or Cyberboard for that matter) and experiment. I have done this a few times in A Dos Metros myself, when I had to plan a complicated move where I had to experiment with different outcomes depending on other players' moves.

The main reason I run it the way I do is that I am playing as well, which excludes the redscape.com method.

As for playing 24/7, that is not necessary in my method. We run turns every 2 days, there are a few players who play an hour so a day and are doing just fine. Trade runs 4 days and chat is NOT necessary, you can still trade by email. There was only one player who was playing from spain and was 6 hours off, but believe it or not he still made it out to chat trades. Chat trading works extremely well, and only takes about half an hour. I schedule a chat trade every night at around 8pm, if people make it out, great, otherwise they can still do normal trading. We do trades in 2 stages, the first player drags his cards over, sets the ownership and the other player does the same to complete the trade. The only thing I wish about cyberboard is that you could set ownership to referee, otherwise I have no complaints. The hellenization variant is beautifully designed and actually looks better than the original board game. I personally think that cyberboard, or any kind of PBEM method is the ONLY way to play a full civ game because the game just takes too long to play. I know some people who are pretty hardcore and leave their games setup for weeks to finish games. I think I have only finished a complete civ game about 4 times in my life and I've played maybe 30 or 40 times.

Yes, I see that as the main reason wanting to use cyberboard. However, nothing prevents you from both GM and play different games using the redscape.com way. Currently I'm playing in ADM, GMed by mcbeth, and I'm about to GM one soon (when some irl stuff I'm involved with has ended), partly to repay the community, and partly becouse I think I'd enjoy the experienc of GMing to.


OK, I thought you played a turn every 2 days, but seing this clarification I se you play a turn evey 6 days, not that far of from the normal 9 days in ADM. A 4 day trade seems resonably, and doesn't require chat.


Well, in a trade with tradechat you'd probably have to chat to get the good deals, even if the time would be inconvinient. If you play 8pm GMT+1 (Western European TIme) time that is between 11am (Pasific) and 2pm (Eastern) US Time. If you have a job allowing you to chat then, great, if not you'd miss lots of good deals. If you went 8pm US time it would be somewhere between 2am and 4am in Europe (depending on which US time), and I would be very much asleepat that time.
So my point still holds, if not as strong when complemented with email.


I completely agree, though some components is imho not as nice as CivProject. However, nothing prevents you from playing Hellenization without Cyberboard, or even print it, which I intend to do when it has matured some (basicly after the input from the current betagame and the resulting revisions). I love Hellenization, though not Cyberboard.


You have a point in that PBEM is quite helpful to get to play a full game, but, as you state yourself, cyberboard is not required. And during the major Swedish game conventions (LinCon and GothCon) there is usualy an AdvCiv tournament, and though the qualifying games is a 6h limited game, the finales (and B-finales if enough people is interested) is a full 12h game, so I get to play at least two full-length games a year (if I go to both conventions, which I've started to do lately).


I have never aborted and resumed games, but even so I have managed 5 full-length irl games (out of about 20). But then all my irl games has been at conventions...

I get 1-2 irl games a year, then the fix from Redscape, averaging around 5 games a year since the game came out. I still haven't ever won I know why, I think, but I haven't managed to fix it yet.

If you would like, we can fire up a Redscape hellenization after ADM ends.

1 or 2 irl games a year!!, I would like to play at least one, but I'm always facing the same problem, not enought people available to play a Civilization game or better said, not enough people with enough time to play it. Irl I have to satisfy myself with other kind of boardgames like Puerto Rico and other eurogames, and I love them .. but it's not the same as a good civilization game! . In the other hand I try to substitute this lack of IRL CIVI with PBEM, and like you I still haven't won! , but I love this game.



This should be fantastic!, if you are thinking in a Redscape hellenization game please take me in care!, I would really like to try your PBEM way playing Hellenization!(or also other variants.)



Jon G.
http://www.civiboard.com/hellas/index.html