Civilization: The Expansion Project

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Roadbuilding
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Post Roadbuilding
In our game of december 28th we discovered something:



Roadbuilding is very rarely bought, though it was actually bought this time, by a player needing 200+ cards and who had focus on crafts.


The main reason why the card is rarely bought is clear:
- It has two real bad drawbacks
- The price is high, there are better options for this price.


But we found out another thing.

Once you hold this card you can move two areas per token, but never though an area that contains 'enemy units'.

First this 'enemy unit' is not cleary specified whether this included pirates and barbarians or not, but in our 'path tracing' discussion, we found out this should include P&B.

This is the discussion:

Quote:
http://www.civproject.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4265#4265


This is the actual line:

Quote:
30.14 Diaspora (Religion - 270)
30.14.1 Provides 10 Religion credits and 5 Art credits.
30.14.2 During the Special Abilities Phase (25.2), a holder may place up to five unit points from stock into one or several empty target areas, provided that an unblocked path (25.1.3) can be traced to target areas. If more than one area is chosen this way, all target areas must be adjacent to eachother. These five unit points may consist of either a city or tokens. A city built this way can only be built on a city site. For each target area the number of tokens may not exceed its population limit, regardless of holding Agriculture (30.3). Areas containing a pirate city or barbarian tokens may not be selected as empty target area for this purpose, and can not be used for tracing an unblocked path.
30.14.3 A holder's hand limit of trade cards is reduced by one. (27.2.2)


That's for that. But we found this ability very weak for it's price.

A slight change would make the card a (whole) lot better.

Someone suggested the following:

Change this in that:

Current:
Quote:
Allows token movement through one land area into a second, provided that the first area contains no enemy units.


New option:
Quote:
Allows token movement through one land area into a second, provided that moving into the first area does not result in conflict.


We all agreed to leave the rest as is. But this slight change make the card a lot more versatile, both for the holder as for any 'defender'.

Now you can move though an area containg 'enemy' units, but as long as no conflict occurs, this should not be a problem. You can actually 'attack' inside a player's area.

Player now really have to choose and defend areas by placing tokens up to the population limits rather than be sitting duck where they already occupied an area with one token.

Cities still block this path.

Players holding Roadbuilding can move into an empty area before another player does, and maybe a 'cheaper' defense for Culutral Ascendancy.

Players can now use Roadbuilding for defending area formerly block by only one emeny token.

So the complete text becomes:

Quote:
Roadbuilding (220)
- Allows token movement through one land area into a second, provided that moving into the first area does not result in conflict.
- EPIDEMIC: Five additional unit points are destroyed
- CIVIL DISORDER: One additional city is reduced.


In fact it's not enemy tokens directly blocking a path, but an occurance of conflict or a city.



Anyone?

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I'm fine with the change - but I think you need elaborate a bit more. Since you don't plan on stopping in the first area how can it ever result in conflict? (since conflict resolution doesn't occur until the end of the turn)

I'm fine with making the card even nicer by changing it to something like:
- Allows token movement through one land area into a second. Movement through areas with enemy units is possible provided the area in question has twice as many friendly units as enemy units.

So you could basically "overrun" and spill over to other areas...


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Quote:
how can it ever result in conflict? (since conflict resolution doesn't occur until the end of the turn)

I guess you mean 'phase' rather than 'turn'.

Ok, Ever thought of 'Cultural Ascendancy' speaking of 'attacking'. The actual word 'Attack' was never described in the rulebook and has been added later.

What is 'attack':
Quote:
Attacking a city is defined as moving tokens into an area containing a city in enough force that conflict would occur.


Quote:
Attacking units is defined as moving tokens into an area containing units in enough force that conflict would occur.


How could this ever be specified as the actual movement does not generat conflict as this is the next phase like you described.

This is the same thing we are speaking about here, though this time, the actual movement not nescesarily has to be attacking, though it can result in conflict.

What we mean is this:

You have two options (for both current and new option):
1. move a token 1 space
2. move a token 2 spaces.

Whenever you move a token 1 space you may go for conflict like always.
Roadbuilding does not deny this, if it would, it would be a downside to buy roadbuilding in the first place.

So, what you described as 'planning to stop' is actually 'not use the roads' and move just one space.

When you move a token 2 spaces, moving in the second area though may result in conflict. Otherwise Roadbuilding would not allow you to attack anymore. The would be strange and wrong.

Your option:
Quote:
- Allows token movement through one land area into a second. Movement through areas with enemy units is possible provided the area in question has twice as many friendly units as enemy units.


Sounds like 'Britannia'

I think the actual situations not always give you free way.

Whenever you would state it, I would rather not choose for double, but excess:

- Allows token movement through one land area into a second, provided that the first area contains less enemy units than the amount of your tokens moving through.




BUT:
Apart from movement by ship, in Civilization each single token moves seperately. You don't move 'six tokens there', but in fact 'one token there' six times. You might also move through one area where the tokens come from several different areas. You can not define this as one single movement.

Our options allows this, though this last option doesn't or otherwise you have to change the rules. I would not prefer that.

We saw this as a simple change int he first place, not a way to overrule the rules.

If you would add your option, you would have to move a number of tokens in one area, remember its ability to move one extra step and only once you have enough, move again. This is kinda complex and confusing.


The way we move is flipping each moved token, THis way you and anyone else can see what has moved. For our new RB-option this should;t have to be changed. keeping track of steps is another thing that doesn't allow this.


So: Once you move a token, you choose 1 or 2 steps and flip it. Easy.

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Post 
Roadbuilding definitely needs to be made more attractive. The players in my group have never bought this card in over 30 games of advanced civilization/civproject.

However, I am always worried about complicating the game by adding conditions to advance abilities. For this reason I would suggest we either say that tokens can move two areas unless there would be conflict in the first area, or else we simply play test the card having removed both the drawbacks of the card. We have a house rule that removes the epidemic drawback and still no one buys the card.

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ofcourse we discussed this.

We only think the upside is too weak. the card may have the downsides.
That's why we came with our suggestion.

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Post 
Though this is a slight change that make a reasonable quality change:

Quote:
Roadbuilding (220)
- Allows token movement through one land area into a second, provided that moving into the first area does not result in conflict.
- EPIDEMIC: Five additional unit points are destroyed
- CIVIL DISORDER: One additional city is reduced.


after some thinking, maybe this would be a good change as well:
Quote:
Roadbuilding (220)
- Allows token movement through one land area into a second, provided that moving into the first area does not result in conflict.
- EPIDEMIC: Five additional unit points are destroyed
- CIVIL DISORDER: One additional city is reduced.
- Your hand limit of trade cards is increased by one.


Why?
- It is in line with the rest of the craft's cards (Trade routes, Trade Empire, Mining)
- Roadbuilding is in line with trade routes
- Roadbuilding does help generating more wealth by trade.

Combined with Trade routes it might result in a player being allowed to hold 10 cards, but at a price in serious calamity downside

It is just a slight idea, but to me it seems fair enough.

Anyone?

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I think I like it. I am not sure of the ramifications of allowing a player to hold 10 trade cards but if this is not a big problem then I think it could be a good solution.

I wonder whether a playtest game where everyone is allowed to hold 9 trade cards after the second epoch and 10 trade cards after the third epoch might be a useful investigation into the effect of allowing players to hold up to 10 trade cards?

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DGatheral wrote:
... I am not sure of the ramifications of allowing a player to hold 10 trade cards...


Please explain.

DGatheral wrote:
I wonder whether a playtest game where everyone is allowed to hold 9 trade cards after the second epoch and 10 trade cards after the third epoch might be a useful investigation into the effect of allowing players to hold up to 10 trade cards?
DG.


I'm not so fond of a change like this. It might result in players reaching this epoch get away from the lower player more and more.

If you put abilities like this into the cards like described, especially a card like roadbuilding, which makes it a choice beteween this and other cards, you contain a sort of balance. Those players who buy roadbuilding might not buy Monotheism or Politics or advanced miltiary. They really choose for it.

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[quote="Flo de Haan"]

I'm not opposed to this.

ANother thought is to allow players to simply do thier entire movement twice - with the second time not allowing any ship movement.


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Velusion wrote:
Flo de Haan wrote:

I'm not opposed to this.

Another thought is to allow players to simply do thier entire movement twice - with the second time not allowing any ship movement.


It might be an option. Regard that moving twice takes a lot more time (and thinking) than moving each token one or two spaces.

Also it bring a little problems in moving simultaneously with other players which then would like to reconsider their moves.

I think looking for options that don't increase movement time are preferable.

(In our last game, we sometimes really got bored stiff by waiting on some players)

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I've created the playtest card for this last option.

Printsheet is a preview, for hires please contact me.

Image Image

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Look good!


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Last playtest MerlokDD january 3rd:
Quote:
2. Road Building (through first area if no conflict)
-> same as Diaspora -> no results

but one more thought: "no conflict" must be defined
moving each token seperately through one area,
there will be no conflict in this for 10 tokens each at its own time
what happens if i want to move 1 token from area A through area B
to area C (with B being a 2 area having 1 enemy token in it)
and in the same turn from area D also 1 token through B to E (or even D)


The rulebook says:

Quote:
17.3 Tokens may be moved either across a single land border, or on board a ship currently occupying the same area. Tokens may not both move across land and on board a ship in the same turn.


Flo de Haan wrote:
Maybe a little addition to the rulebook will help:

Quote:
17.3 Each single token is considered to move independantly from other tokens rather than group-wise. Tokens may be moved either across a single land border, or on board a ship currently occupying the same area. Tokens may not both move across land and on board a ship in the same turn.


and:

17.3.1 Players holding Roadbuilding ... (add:) Each single token is considered to move independantly from other tokens rather than group-wise.

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Last edited by Flo de Haan on 2009-01-06 9:51:26, edited 1 time in total.

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Post 
Reconsidering my last reply:



Maybe adding a line to the rulebook at roadbuilding only will be the best.

What we intended was not to have conflict by moving one token after another. Just because you move them one after the other. We should not regard movement by moving 'five tokens into this area', but by moving 'one token into this area' five times.

This is because it should not matter whether these 'five' tokens come from one area or several areas. Immediately after each single token moved in, you should have the choice of moving a second step, as long as no conflict would occur in the first AT THIS POINT. Then you move the next token. This works easiest and quickest.

Also it should be clear how to regard ships in roadbuilding, as it may lead to doubts. and ships DO move more tokens at once.

So maybe adding:
"Each single token movement is considered to be one movement for this purpose."

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As the rulebook has to be checked and rewritten anyway, I've taken a closer look at 'movement' part of the rulebook and applying this new 'roadbuilding'.

I also found some more errors and obsolete parts.

These are the changes:

Current:
Quote:
Quote:
17. Movement
17.1 Once ship construction is completed, players may move some, all, or none of their tokens and ships. Cities may not be moved. A player may not move another player's tokens or ships.
17.2 Players move in descending census order.
17.2.1 Players holding Military (30.28) always move after players not holding Military. The order of movement between players holding Military is determined normally, according to descending census order.
17.2.2 Barbarians, which periodically appear on the board as a calamity, move only during the Calamity Resolution phase in which they appear.
17.3 Tokens may be moved either across a single land border, or on board a ship currently occupying the same area. Tokens may not both move across land and on board a ship in the same turn.
17.3.1 Players holding Roadbuilding (30.43) may move their tokens through one land area and then into a second land area in the same movement phase. The first area entered may not contain units belonging to another player, barbarians or a pirate city. Roadbuilding may not be used to move tokens through a land area then on board a ship.
17.4 Any number of tokens, belonging to any number of players, may be moved into the same area. Tokens may be moved into an area containing a city. Tokens may be moved into an area in excess of the area's population limit, although this may result in the later elimination of excess tokens.
17.4.1 Players not holding Diplomacy (30.15) or Military (30.28) may not attack a city belonging to a player holding Diplomacy. Attacking a city is defined as moving tokens into an area containing a city in enough force that conflict would occur.
17.4.2 Players holding Cultural Ascendancy (30.11) or Advanced Military (30.2) may not attack any units belonging to a player holding Cultural Ascendancy. Attacking units is defined as moving tokens into an area containing units in enough force that conflict would occur.
17.5 Movement of Ships
17.5.1 Ships may only move across water borders. A ship may move into up to four water areas in the same movement phase.
17.5.1.1 Players holding Cloth Making (30.9) may move their ships into one extra area during each movement phase.
17.5.1.2 Only players holding Astronavigation (30.6) may move their ships into open sea areas (2.2.3).
17.5.1.3 Ships may end their movement in any water area they can reach, other than an open sea area, regardless of whose ships or tokens also occupy the area.
17.5.1.4 Some territories may have two distinct coastlines. Ships may enter a territory from either side, but must leave from that same side. Ships may not cross directly from one coastline to another.
17.5.2 A ship may carry as many as five tokens at one time. Only tokens that have not been moved over land in the current movement phase may embark onto and move with a ship.
17.5.2.1 A ship belonging to a player holding Naval Warfare (30.36) may carry one extra token at any time.
17.5.2.2 A ship may take part in any number of embarkations and debarkations of tokens during the same movement phase, and may retrace all or part of its route subject only to the limitation on the number of areas entered. A ship may thus ferry two loads of tokens across a narrow strait, or pick up and set down tokens at different areas along its voyage. Tokens must be embarked and debarked during the same movement phase. A token may not remain aboard a ship at the end of a movement phase. A token may not travel on more than one ship in the same movement phase.

Quote:
30.43 Roadbuilding (Craft – 220)
30.43.1 Provides 10 Craft credits and 5 Science credits.
30.43.2 Allows token movement through one land area into a second, provided that the first area contains no enemy units (17.3.1).
30.43.3 Five additional unit points are destroyed due to Epidemic (29.6.2.4).
30.43.4 One additional city is reduced due to Civil Disorder (29.7.2.3).

Quote:
27. Return of Excess Commodity Cards
27.2.1 Players holding Trade Routes (30.48) may retain one additional commodity card.
27.2.2 Players holding Diaspora (30.14) may only retain one less commodity card.
27.2.3 The effects of Trade Routes and Diaspora are cumulative.



NEW:

Quote:
Quote:
17. Movement
17.1 Players move in descending census order, but may players may move simultaneously if desired. Census ties are broken by AST order.
17.2 Players holding Military (30.28) always move after players not holding Military. If more than one player holds Military the order between these is determined like 17.1
17.3 A player may move each of his own tokens or ships. Cities can not be moved. Any remaining barbarian tokens on the board never move. Tokens may be moved either across a single land border, or on board a ship currently occupying the same area. Tokens may not both move across land and on board a ship in the same turn.
17.3.1 Players holding Roadbuilding (30.43) may move each single token through one land area into a second land area in the same movement phase, provided that moving into the first area would not result in conflict at that point (18.1). Each single token movement moving either one or two areas is considered to be one token movement for this purpose. Roadbuilding may not be used to move a single token both by land and by ship.
17.4 During movement, any number of tokens, belonging to any number of players, may be moved into the same area and the population limit of an area may be exceeded. Tokens are allowed to be moved into an area containing a city.
17.4.1 Players not holding Diplomacy (30.15) or Military (30.28) may not move tokens into an area containing a city belonging to a player holding Diplomacy, if this would result in conflict (18.1).
17.4.2 Players not holding Cultural Ascendancy (30.11) or Advanced Military (30.2) may not move tokens into an area containing tokens or a city belonging to a player holding Cultural Ascendancy, if this would result in conflict (18.1).
17.5 Movement of Ships
17.5.1 Ships may only move across water borders. Each ship may move into up to four water areas in the same movement phase.
17.5.1.1 Players holding Cloth Making (30.9) may move each of their ships into one additional area during each movement phase.
17.5.1.2 Only players holding Astronavigation (30.6) may move their ships into open sea areas (2.2.3).
17.5.1.3 Ships may end their movement in any area they can reach, other than an open sea area, regardless of ships or tokens belonging to other players or Barbarians or Pirates already occupying the area.
17.5.2 A ship may carry as many as five tokens at one time. Only tokens that have not been moved over land in the current movement phase may embark onto and move with a ship. Any tokens disembarked from a ship may not move by land during the same turn.
17.5.2.1 A ship belonging to a player holding Naval Warfare (30.36) may carry one additional token at any time.
17.5.2.2 A ship may take part in any number of embarkations and debarkations of tokens during the same movement phase, and may retrace all or part of its route subject only to the limitation on the number of areas entered. A ship is allowed to pick up and set down tokens at different areas along its voyage. Tokens must be embarked and debarked during the same movement phase. A token may not remain aboard a ship at the end of a movement phase. A token may not travel on more than one ship in the same movement phase.


Quote:
30.43 Roadbuilding (Craft – 220)
30.43.1 Provides 10 Craft credits and 5 Science credits.
30.43.2 Allows each single token movement through one land area into a second land area, provided that moving into the first area would not result in conflict at that point (18.1). Each single token movement moving either one or two areas is considered to be one token movement for this purpose. Roadbuilding may not be used to move a single token both by land and by ship.
30.43.3 Five additional unit points are destroyed due to Epidemic (29.6.2.4).
30.43.4 One additional city is reduced due to Civil Disorder (29.7.2.3).
30.43.5 A holder's hand limit of trade cards is increased by one (27.2.1).

Quote:
27. Return of Excess Commodity Cards
27.2.1 Players holding Trade Routes (30.48) may retain one additional commodity card.
27.2.2 Players holding Roadbuilding (30.48) may retain one additional commodity card.
27.2.3 Players holding Diaspora (30.14) may only retain one less commodity card.
27.2.3 The effects of Trade Routes and Diaspora are cumulative.


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