OK

before losing myself any more in fonts and colors, I first started working on the text for the past days.

I tried to get a nice compromise in the 'Reduces the effect of" and the fully explained text in the manual. (where sometimes also only says "reduces the effect" instead of "one less city is reduced")

- I tried for a consequent use of words. Thus it sometimes said "neighbouring" and sometimes "adjacent". Now I changed all into "adjacent"
for example to say.

these are the rules I went for, to get the best result.


- All seperate attributes are in one alinea starting with a marker.

- CALAMITIES are written in capital.

- Civilization Advances are written italic. (I copy past this from a word document. so this may not apply here, still i want to use this for the cards.)

- All number are fully written. Thus not 8 unit point and 3 cards, but eight unit points and three cards. This used to be inconsequent.

- CALAMITY: this is the way the effect is written.

- Nulifies CALAMITY. (this is the exception)

Me and my friends have updated and edited the official text on all civilization cards.

to be less confusing I remove the ones from previous posts.

note: all 'advances' in the text should be written italic, but since I uses Copy paste it didn't apply.

(the number between brackets indicated the number of words)



------------------------------------------------------------------------------

260 - ADVANCED MILITARY (50)

- Holder may use tokens from adjacent land areas as casualties in battle, but must leave at least one token in each area used this way.

- Nullifies Cultural Ascendancy.

- CIVIL WAR: Five additional unit points from both factions are destroyed.

- CIVIL DISORDER: One additional city is reduced.


120 AGRICULTURE (26)

- Increases the population limit in areas containing only holder's tokens by one.

- FAMINE: During calamity phase this advance is ignored for the primary victim.

270 ANATOMY (41)

- Upon purchase, holder may immediately acquire up to two (semi-)sciences with a face value of less than 100 points each.

- EPIDEMIC: As primary victim holder loses eight less unit points. As secondary victim holder loses five less unit points.


140 ARCHITECTURE (20)

- Up to half of the costs of constructing a city may be paid by treasury tokens, once each turn.


80 ASTRONOMY (8)

- Allows ship movement across open sea areas.


180 CALENDAR (23)

- CYCLONE: Two less cities are reduced. Two less ships are destroyed.

- FAMINE: As secondary victim holder loses five less unit points.



160 CARTOGRAPHY (41)

- Holder may buy cards from the second trade card stack for seven treasury tokens per card.

- Holder may buy cards from the seventh trade card stack for fifteen treasury tokens per card.

- PIRACY: One additional city is replaced.


50 CLOTH MAKING (11)

- Increases ship movement by one area per ship per turn.


90 COINAGE (30)

- Holder may increase or decrease his or her tax rate by one. This is cumulative with Monarchy.

- CORRUPTION: Five additional commodity card points (face value) must be discarded.


280 CULTURAL ASCENDANCY (24)

- Any opponent attacking holder's units must hold Advanced Military or Cultural Ascendancy.

- Nullifies Politics

- Cities require one extra token to support.


80 - DEISM (7)

- SUPERSTITION: One less city is reduced.



220 DEMOCRACY (26)

- Prevents tax revolts on holder's cities.

- CIVIL WAR: Increases the first faction by ten unit points.

- CIVIL DISORDER: One less city is reduced.


270 DIASPORA (44)

- During Special Abilities Phase, holder may place a city or tokens up to the population limit from stock in an empty area, provided that an unblocked path can be traced to target area.

- Holder's hand limit of trade cards reduced by one.


180 DIPLOMACY (20)

- Any opponent attacking holder's cities must have Military or Diplomacy.

- TREACHERY: One additional city is captured or destroyed.


90 DRAMA AND POETRY (19)

- CIVIL WAR: Increases the first faction by five unit points.

- CIVIL DISORDER: One less city is reduced.


60 EMPIRICISM (1)

- None.



160 ENGINEERING (64)

- Any player attacking holder's cities need one extra token per city. Holder's city is replaced by an additional token.

- Holder requires one less token when attacking an enemy city. The defending city is replaced by one less token.

- FLOOD: A maximum of seven unit points is destoyed.

- EARTHQUAKE: Holder's city is reduced rather than destroyed. Cancels the effect of Urbanism.


160 ENLIGHTENMENT (20)

- SUPERSTITION: One less city is reduced.

- SLAVE REVOLT: Five less tokens can not be used for city support.


150 FUNDAMENTALISM (44)

- During Special Abilities Phase, holder may destroy all units in one adjacent land area belonging to a player not holding Fundamentalism or Philosophy. Pirate cities and barbarian tokens may not be destroyed.

- REGRESSION: Holder's A.S.T. marker is moved back one additional space.


170 LAW (20)

- CIVIL DISORDER: One less city is reduced.

- CORRUPTION: Five less commodity card points (face value) must be discarded.


220 LIBRARY (31)

- Discounts the cost of any one Civilization Advance by forty points, provided that this card is purchased simultaneously with Library.

- REGRESSION: Holder's A.S.T. marker is moved back one less space.



110 LITERACY (1)

- None.


60 MASONRY (7)

- CYCLONE: One less city is reduced.


240 MATHEMATICS (1)

- None.

140 MEDICINE (20)

- EPIDEMIC: As primary victim, holder loses eight less unit points. As secondary victim, holder loses five less unit points.


90 METALWORKING (22)

- In conflict, for each area, holder's tokens are removed after all opponents who don't hold Metalworking have removed one of theirs.


170 MILITARY (38)

- Holder constructs and maintains ships and moves after all players that don't hold Military.

- Nullifies Diplomacy.

- CIVIL WAR: Five additional unit points from both factions are destroyed.

- CIVIL DISORDER: One additional city is reduced.



230 MINING (58)

- Holder may buy cards from the sixth trade card stack for thirteen treasury tokens per card.

- Holder may buy cards from the eighth trade card stack for sixteen treasury tokens per card.

- Treasury tokens are worth two points when buying Civilization Advances.

- SLAVE REVOLT: Five additional tokens can not be used for city support.


60 MONARCHY (35)

- Holder may increase his or her tax rate by one. This is cumulative with Coinage.

- TYRANNY: Five additional unit points are annexed.

- BARBARIAN HORDES: Five less barbarian tokens are put into play.


230 MONOTHEISM (46)

- During Special Abilities Phase, holder may replace from stock to board exactly all units in one adjacent area belonging to a player not holding Monotheism or Theology. Pirate cities and barbarian tokens may not be converted.

- ICONOCLASM & HERESY: One additional city is reduced.


180 MONUMENT (25)

- Upon purchase the holder acquires ten points of credit tokens in any combination of colors. These credits can not be used the same turn.


80 MUSIC (19)

- CIVIL WAR: Increases the first faction by five unit points.

- CIVIL DISORDER: One less city is reduced.



50 MYSTICISM (7)

- SUPERSTITION: One less city is reduced.


60 MYTHOLOGY (13)

- SLAVE REVOLT: Five less tokens can not be used for city support.


160 NAVAL WARFARE (46)

- Holder may use ships instead of tokens as casualties in conflict.

- Ships may carry one extra token.

- CIVIL WAR: Five additional unit points from both factions are destroyed.

- CIVIL DISORDER: One additional city is reduced.

- PIRACY: One less city is replaced.


240 PHILOSOPHY (28)

- Nullifies Fundamentalism.

- CIVIL WAR: The first faction always consists of fifteen unit points chosen by the benificiary.

- ICONOCLASM & HERESY: One less city is reduced.


220 POLITICS (57)

- During Special Abilities Phase holder may either replace from treasury to board exactly all units in one adjacent area belonging to a player not holding Politics or Cultural Ascendancy, or gain five treasury tokens from stock. Pirate cities and barbarian tokens may not be annexed.

- BARBARIAN HORDES: Five additional barbarian tokens are put into play.


60 POTTERY (8)

- FAMINE: Five less unit points are destroyed.


270 PROVINCIAL EMPIRE (65)

- During Special Abilities Phase, holder may collect one commodity card with a face value of at least two (opponent's choice) from five different players not holding Provincial Empire or Public Works. These players should have units in an area directly adjacent to an area with holder's units.

- BARBARIAN HORDES: Five additional barbarian tokens are used.

- TYRANNY: Five additional unit points are annexed.


230 PUBLIC WORKS (22)

- Nullifies Provincial Empire.

- Areas with holder's cities may contain one token.

- Holder's cities cost one extra token to construct.


130 RHETORIC (17)

- Holder may buy cards from the third trade card stack for nine treasury tokens per card.


220 ROADBUILDING (59)

- Allows token movement through one land area into a second, provided that the first area contains no enemy units (including pirate or barbarian units). Roadbuilding may not be used to move tokens through a land area and then on board a ship.

- EPIDEMIC: Five additional unit points are destroyed.

- CIVIL DISORDER: One additional city is reduced.


50 SCULPTURE (7)

TYRANNY: Five less unit points are annexed.



80 THEOCRACY (30)

- ICONOCLASM & HERESY: Holder may discard two commodity cards to cancel the calamity effects this turn.

- SLAVE REVOLT: Five additional tokens can not be used for city support.


250 THEOLOGY (12)

- Nullifies Monotheism.

- ICONOCLASM & HERESY: Three less cities are reduced.


270 TRADE EMPIRE (73)

- During Special Abilities Phase, holder may ask a player not holding Trade Empire or Wonder of the World for a named commodity card. When this player does not have this card, holder may ask up to two different players for the same card this way. Whenever a player holds the named card, holder collects this one card.

- EPIDEMIC: Five additional unit points are destroyed.

- CYCLONE: One additional city is reduced.


180 TRADE ROUTES (31)

- Holder's hand limit of trade cards is increased by one.

- Holder may exchange commodity cards for treasury tokens twice the face value during the Returning Excess Commodity Cards Phase.

160 UNIVERSAL DOCTRINE (45)

- During Special Abilities Phase, holder may replace from stock to board up to five pirate or barbarian units in one adjacent area, provided that an unblocked path by land or sea can be traced to target area.

- SUPERSTITION: One additional city is reduced.



50 URBANISM (43)

- Holder may use up to four tokens from adjacent areas to build a city in an area without a city site.

- VOLCANIC ERUPTION / EARTHQUAKE: Four additional unit points are destroyed from any area(s) adjacent to the destroyed or reduced city.


280 WONDER OF THE WORLD (29)

- Nullifies Trade Empire.

- Upon purchase the holder acquires twenty points of credit tokens in any combination of colors. These credits can not be used the same turn.


60 WRITTEN RECORD (1)

- None.

I'm currently reading through your updated texts and comparing them to the original, and here is some comments:


The current policy is to only write the full text in §28 (Calamities), writing an abbreviated form on the back on the advances and on the advances quick chart, and only writing "{reduces,aggravates,modifies} the effects of ..." on the front of the advances and in §29 (Civilization Card Attributes). With your redesign of the layout of the advances, the only change in policy that the abbreviated form is on the front of the cards rather than the back.
That said, an improved abbreviated form is still very welcome.


I've already got this on my to-do list, both on cards and in the rulebook. I was going to standardize on the following:
1). Two areas are adjacent if they share a common border.
2a) An area is adjacent to a civilization if it is adjacent to an area containing units belonging to that civilization.
2b) Two nations are adjacent to each other if they have units in the same area, or in areas adjacent to each other.

Of course this would be clarified in the rulebook as well (currently neither "adjacent", "neighbouring" nor "bordering" is defined at all, but relies on the generic definitions that are inherently in the language).


I was using, or at least tried to use (probably missed some instances), a traditional Swedish standard, that to my knowledge are commonly used in English as well: all numbers up to eight are written as letters, but numbers beginning with 9 are written as digits.
However, standardizing at letters is also a valid strategy, as we never use numbers larger than 100 in the attributes. (It's acceptable to write "forty-five" as letters to get a common look, but writing "one hundred and forty-five" just isn't worth it.)

Then to the actual texts. First some comments on overall changes, so I don't have to write it every time.

1) You seams to have standardized on "As {primary,secondary} victim holder loses ..." for calamity loss modifications only affecting primary or secondary victim. Firstly, the sentences don't make sense unless you add a comma after victim, but even so I don't really like "As {primary,secondary} victim, holder loses...". Instead I'd prefer something like "A {primary,secondary} victim [who holds X] loses ..." (The part in brackets are optional, I think it should be used in the rulebook, but not on the cards).

2) The CIVIL WAR text on Military, Advanced Military and Naval Warfare should not read "additional", as no unit points are removed normally. I'm not sure about it, but I think something in the lines of "CIVIL WAR: Five unit points per faction are remove once the primary victim has selected faction." would be better.

3) As CORRUPTION always works with face value points, I don't think this has to be clarified on the advance and advances quick chart. It is already clarified at the calamity quick chart.

4) I like the way you have specified that actions take place during the Special Abilities Phase, but you must include a "the" before "Special" for the sentence to be grammatically correct.

5) It seams you are using "from stock to board" and "from treasury to board" in several instances. I think this is somewhat overkill. "from stock" and "from treasury" is enough, and sounds better.


See (2) above.


The first sentence is suboptimal, as it could easily be misread "holders' tokens" instead of "holder's tokens", especially when being read aloud. I'd recommend this, somewhat more cumbersome, but less ambiguous, version instead: "Increases by one the population limit in areas containing only tokens belonging to a single holder [of Agriculture]."
Also, I've just noticed the corner case of Public Works + Aggriculture + a city with a token is reduced. I need to decide what to do about that and clarify the rules. Then I'll probably revisit this text.
FAMINE: That is incorrect, as it does work during the rest of the calamity phase, just not during the resolution of Famine (e.g. if you have to reduce some cities due to another calamity, it does increase the population limit). I'd suggest letting this be a second exception to the "CALAMITY: Effect" style, and keep the current text.


There is no such thing as a semi-science card, all cards are either science or not. That said, a card may be both a science card, and another type of card as well, which is referred to as a dual-science card.
See (1) above.


Much better than the original, that doesn't mention "once per turn". However, your version forgets to mention it only works in unopposed areas, and has some minor grammatical problems. So I'd suggest "Once per turn, up to half of the costs of constructing a city in an unopposed area may be paid by treasury tokens.".


While this sentence is better than the current one, and is grammatically correct, it took me a few tries to parse it correctly. This was mostly because I didn't immediately connect the two words "ship" and "movement" into the single object "ship movement". I'm thinking the following sentence might be easier to understand: "Allows ships to move through open sea areas.".


See (1) above.


Good.


Good.


I'm strongly opposed all instances of "his or her", as that would require me to add 61 instances of "or her" and 65 instances of "or she" to the rulebook. This isn't too hard to do, but would make it even longer and linguistically more complex, without adding any benefit to the game. Thus, I'm always using the linguistically correct pronoun, rather than the politically correct double pronoun. Thus a "player" is always a "he", while a "person" or a "human" always is a she (though I don't think the rulebook ever uses a pronoun to refer to a "person" or a "human", only to a "player").
See (3) above


I don't quite like the first sentence, but would prefer the old version instead.


Good.


I do think "Prevents tax revolts." is enough for the first meaning. It's not as if anyone would interpret it as if no tax revolts ever took place when the first player bought democracy in any case. If so, one would have to rewrite almost every calamity effect (including both on this card)...


The second paragraph is missing an "is" from the original. It's a good idea to include "cards" though.
See (4) above.


I don't quite like the first sentence, but would prefer the old version instead.


Good.


Good.


Good, except for a misspelling (destoyed => destroyed).


Good.


See (4) above.


See (3) above


Good.


Good.


Good.


Good.


See (1) above.


I've cleaned this up in the rulebook for the next draft already, but hadn't thought of the advancement. However, your text isn't optimal either, so what about
"Holder begin to remove tokens in conflict after all players that don't hold Metalworking."
Note the similarity in language to Military below.


See (2) above


Good.


I don't like "are put into play", but would prefer to use "are used".


See (4) and (5) above.


Good.


Good.


Good.


Good.


Good.


Good.


Good, except for a spelling mistake (benificiary => beneficiary).


There should be a comma after "Phase".
I don't like "are put into play", but would prefer to use "are used".
See (4) adn (5) above.


Good.


Due to the reasoning about adjacent and neighboring above, I think we should use "different neighboring players" instead if "different players", and completely drop "These players should have units in an area directly adjacent to an area with holder's units.".
See (4) above.


Good.


Good.


While the attributes text above is correct, I think it is overkill for the abbreviated version. As such, I think the following sentence should do: "Allows token movement through one land area into a second, provided that the first area only contains units belonging to the holder."


Good.


The Iconoclasm and Heresy text isn't correct. The calamity (including secondary victims) still occur.
Thus I'd recommend to change to: "ICONOCLASM & HERESY: Holder may sacrifice two commodity cards instead of reducing cities."


Good.


Perhaps a bit overkill, but probably good. You are using the wrong prepositions in two cases though, it should be "If this player does not" and "If a player holds the", not "When" and "Whenever".
See (4) above.


You are missing the "at" in "at twice the face value". I've renamed the phase to the Return of Excess Commodity Cards phase, to be more consistent with the other phase names (nothing you could have known, as I haven't published the draft yet, but thought you could get it right from the start).


"by land or sea" is overkill, and inconsistent with Diaspora.
See (4) and (5) above


I know this is my fault originally, but I think it should be "when building" not "to build", or one could read it as if that was all that was needed.
Remove "additional", as no unit points are usually removed from adjacent areas. Also, "any areas" isn't grammatically correct English, so I'd prefer if i was just "from areas adjacent to".


Good.


You are forgetting the only reason to buy this card: "Upon purchase the holder acquires five points of credit tokens in any color. These credits can not be used the same turn."

I've been making up the new lines used for the cards together with my cousin Gerart. When we were playing also Evertjan contributed to this.

So I would like to ask them to judge and discuss about this. I think they are both more 'in charge' and also better in judging about this than I am.

I'm send them a message and ask them to join in this.


As a first reaction, I want to say we agreed during play, that the use of the word "attacking" should be explained better on the card.

Something like: "moving your tokens into a token with enemy tokens." and besides that the addition of something like "pop.-ex. is not regarded as attacking"

As I was the one that was doing the lay-out AND I haven't been working on it yet, since we've been playing, this hasn't been posted here on any topic.

I only have two remarks:

1. a card can have three effects:
abilities,
disaster and
special abilities. (like conversion for monotheism)
I would prefer that last one also to be distinct(/colored)

additionaly/alternatively there are different ways to order the properties of an advance. one would be to order by the above three effects. another posibilitie would be to order with regard to the fases of a turn that a propertie takes effect.

2. given that the credits are added at the botum and the removal of the n-different groups requirement of the AST the use of the color at the top of the card almost is lost.
It would be posible to remove that colour completely by adding the symbol for that group to the title bar.
This i would generaly also prefer.

Evertjan van de Kaa

Well for last point I see, you are a player that only goes for functional play.

I really want to (and have) add some flavour to the cards. The same goes for "We don;t need images at all" and "We don;t need flavor text". "Actually we don't even need the cards. (a quick sheet would do)." In fact we don;t but it makes the game a bit more fun. That's why I started changing the cards after all. I like the fact that the seperate advances have seperart 'groups'. Not to say that these are always the right group, which has been discussed before, but I believe the colors are well chosen in their function in the game.

For the first point, I would like this to be changed, but as Jonno said before, I could get more messier on the whole of the cards. A simple line would also do.

Two remarks regarding the post of "Jonno" of 2008-01-24 13:29:14 (about advances text):

1. with regard to militarism, the additionaly used there probably refers to the fact that these losses are cumulative. a player having militarism, advanced militarism and naval warfare would cause the two fractions to lose 15 tokens (after he has chosen his fraction). Thus it should be mentioned that the effect is cumulative.

2. regarding famine you could also write:

"During this (Famine) calamity…”.

Evertjan van de Kaa

That does not remove the fact that somehow adding the simbols used to indicate "general" credits can make it easier to see which cards get those credits. additionaly it would be better usable for colour blind people.

As for the three categories, i still think it would be better if they were clearly indicated (by being bold?)

Evertjan van de Kaa

Thanks for the comments. I read through Jonno's comments thoroughly, and adjusted the texts provided by Flo's. Since I agreed with most of the comments, the new list is for a predominantly according to Jonno's preferences.

However, there are a couple of exceptions, which I will explain below. I won't insert the complete list with updated texts in the forum, but you can download the file at:

http://www.kjbwaarland.com/Civilization ... s_Edit.doc

I used 'track changes' (in MS Word), so you should be able to see exactly which changes I made. Some changes are applied to Flo's original texts too.

Changes and comments:

ADVANCED MILITARY, MILITARY, and NAVAL WARFARE.
I agree with Evertjan that it should be clear that the 'destroying' effects are cumulative, although I agree with Jonno that 'additional' might be confusing, since this effect is not applied normally. I suggest to leave out the word 'additional', but add a second sentence saying "This is cumulative with {X} and {Y}". Flo used the same solution for the cumulative effects of Coinage and Monarchy.

ARCHITECTURE
Since the rules clearly state that "Cities can not be constructed in areas containing tokens belonging to another player or barbarians", it seems redundant to me to include the statement about an 'unopposed area' on this card.

ENGINEERING
I replaced the word 'by' with the word 'with' in the sentence "Holder's city is replaced by an additional token", since the city is not replaced by a single token, but to six tokens with an additional one.

MONUMENT, WONDER OF THE WORLD, WRITTEN RECORD
I replaced "Upon purchase the holder acquires ..." by "Upon purchase, holder acquires ...", and replaced "... used the same turn" by "... in the same turn".

ROADBUILDING
Jonno's suggestion "Alows token movement through one land area into a second, provided that the first area only contains units belonging to the holder", is not sufficient, since the area may be empty too. Therefore, I kept Flo's text, but removed the part "(including pirate or barbarian units)", since it is clear both pirate- and barbarian units are enemies.

Furthermore I noticed four occasions of the word 'extra', which I all replaced by the word 'additional' (which already had twenty-some occasions), to be more consistent in general.

There are some more minor changes I made, which include some instances of interpunction. I did not list them here, but all changes can be found in the Word-file I provided.

Gerart

Well, as Velusion posted in another thread earlier, we are changing the definition of attacking slightly in 2.10:

Those texts are far to long for the cards and quick chards though. If you have a suggestion for an abbreviated version, I'm all ears.


Imho, there is no difference between abilities and special abilities. Both let you do something you without the card wouldn't have been allowed to do. The difference is only in which phase they occur. Astronomy occurs during the Movement phase, while Fundamentalism occurs during the Special Abilities Phase.
Secondly, they already stand out quite dramatically, as they all begin with "During the Special Abilities Phase, ...", much like calamity effects all begin with "CALAMITY-NAME: ...".
Finally, I'm very opposed to colouring the text, as that distracts from the overall look of the card, as well as from the non-coloured text.


This is a much more interesting idea. Ordering by the phases is imho quite a good idea. Gerart: please do!


Well, I suppose you are right. It must still be indicated somehow, as it determines what credits you can use, but one or two symbol(s) in the title bar should probably do the job. However, that would reduce font size for the name, and would reduce the visual impact of the advancement group significantly, neither of which I think is any good.


Yes, one could. However, famine is a card, not a phase, so one would have to write "During the resolution of this calamity". However, even so, perhaps it would be better.
What do you think of these to alternatives:
1) "FAMINE: During the resolution of this calamity this advance is ignored for the primary victim.
2) "Agriculture does not work for the primary victim during the resolution of FAMINE."
Personally, I prefer (2), but not so much that I would object to (1).
P.S. Gerart: The text in your file is erroneous. It should be "resolution of", not "resolve of a", and Famine should be all upper-case, like all other calamity names. D.S.


Thanks for your work!


Works just fine, thanks.


The idea is to keep the texts on the cards and quick charts short, and adding that sentence is somewhat overkill. I think it should be considered implied that all advancement attributes are commutative (with the exception of Philosophy, which is clearly marked), so that sentence could probably be removed on all 5 cards.


Yes, you are probably right. However, as that rule never comes into consideration unless you hold Architecture (as you can't have 6 tokens in an opposed area, as there is no 7-population areas on the board), so quite a few people isn't aware of that rule. Don't know if that is enough to add it to the card, or if one should refer those people to the full rules in the rulebook.


Much better, thanks.
However, I just realized that it doesn't say that it voids the effects of Urbanism on VOLCANIC ERUPTION AND EARTHQUAKE.


Sounds good.


You are absolutely right.


Great.


Looks good.

Some more comments from me, mostly due to changes I'm working on for the 2.10 version of the rules:

AGRICULTURE:
I thought of this last time, but forgot to write it down:
I'd very much like if "Indirectly lessens the effects of city reduction." was reintroduced, because quite a few people don't see this by themselves.

ADVANCED MILITARY:
Adjacent land areas, and areas adjacent by land, are not the same thing (two land area can be adjacent to each other by water only). Advanced Military should read " ... tokens from areas adjacent by land as ...".

PROVINCIAL EMPIRE
The 2.10 rules are still a work in progress, but after many tries with adjacent and neighbouring, I've decided to use adjacent even for civ to civ, and not only area to area and area to civ. Thus it should be "different adjacent players". Sorry for not making up my mind sooner.

URBANISM
I'm trying to get rid of the Volcano/Earthquake shorthand for Volcanic Eruption or Earthquake. Please use the full name.

MONOTHEISM, PHILOSOPHY, THEOCRACY, THEOLOGY
On the same note, please use "ICONOCLASM AND HERESY" rather than "ICONOCLASM & HERESY".


P.S. I split this discussion from the one about the layout, as it really is a separate issue, and it started to take over that thread completely

Why is it, that the actual Calamity-card shows "Iconoclasm & Heresy". I think that should be changed too this way

You are right, then the Calamity card should be changed too. Putting it on my to-do for 2.10 (unless, of course, you do it while you swap out the drawings).

I imported your texts into my advances quickchart (I was to do that for 2.10 anyway, so I thought I could just as well do it right now), and then did the changes I asked for myself, with recorded changes, so you can see what I did. Please take a look, and say what you like/dislike etc:

AdvancesQuickChart(2.10-draft1).odt
AdvancesQuickChart(2.10-draft1).pdf

P.S. If you are using Microsoft Word, and want to edit the odt, just download the Sun ODF Plugin 1.1 for Microsoft Office. Or download OpenOffice.org, I find it much better than Microsoft Office. Or use anything else supporting ODF. There is something for every taste (and every wallet).

Jonno,

A couple of notes and comments from my side.

- I did not (yet) download the software to edit the odt-file, because I think it is better when one person (in this case you) is able to edit this file, rather than multiple persons editing the same file at the same time. If you do the edits, I can make comments on the forum, which is fine to me.

- I think it is important to add to the new rulebook:
1) a clear definition of 'attack' (although I think I already saw that)
2) a clear statement that all effects of the Advances are cumulative
3) a clear statement that effects of cards only influence the holder (unless it is clearly stated otherwise on the card itself, like Engineering)

- I had a discussion with Flo (face to face) this weekend about my last version of the texts. Historically, we are used to discuss certain things until we are both satisfied, and in case we are not, something is still not okay. So once more I have comments about some cards:

AGRICULTURE
We are still not very much satisfied with the text. After some more thinking, we did not have a clue what was actually wrong with the old version, something like: "Increases by one the population limit in areas containing only holder's tokens". It is perfect to us. By the way, addition of a sentence with relation to city reduction is an improvement. However, I would prefer the word 'decreases' over 'lessens', since it is more often used in other cards.

METALWORKING
Without having a good alternative at this very moment, we are just not very happy with the current version. It just is not very clear.

MONOTHEISM
We discovered an error in this text. It should read "adjacent land area", rather than "adjacent area".

POTTERY
This card says less unit points are 'destroyed' during Famine, where CALENDER says less unit points are 'lost', which is not consistent. I think 'lost' is a better option for this card.

THEOCRACY
The last version can be misread in a way that two cards have to be discarded per city. This could be solved by changing it to "Holder may discard two commodity cards instead of reducing his cities."; anyway it sounds a little better too.

In General

- Flo does not agree with my solutions "replace with" for ENGINEERING, and "in the same turn" for MONUMENT, WONDER OF THE WORLD, and WRITTEN RECORD. Since I am no native English speaker (and neither are you or Flo), I suggest we ask someone who actually is, about these cases.

- Please compare the next two sentences, both taken from CALENDER:
1) CYCLONE: Two less cities are reduced. Two less ships are destroyed.
2) FAMINE: A secondary victim loses five less unit points.

These two sentences are gramatically not in line with eachother: the first one is 'passive voice' and the second one is 'active voice'. To be more consistent, we should change the second sentence to:

2) FAMINE: As secondary victim, five less unit points are lost.

This a bit similar to the version we had last week, except for the fact that the word 'holder' is ommitted by the change to passive voice. I really prefer this formulation above the others, but that would mean the following cards have to be changed in this way: ANATOMY, CALENDER, and MEDICINE.

- Last comment (so far): what is in fact wrong with the words "you" and "your"? All occurences of the words "holder" and "holder's" can be replaced by these two words, and since Advances apply only to the holder, why shouldnt' they say you? Many sentences could sound more naturally in this way. Needless to say, it should be done very consistent in the whole set.

Sounds fine to me too, that is the way we usually do it.


1) Done (see §17.4.1 and §17.4.2).
2) Is stated individually for each calamity effect, but I'm looking at ways to simplify this for the next draft.
3) Is stated individually for each attribute where it applies. This can not be generalized, as the way each attribute works is so very different.


Great, more input is always wanted.


The problem with the original text (as quoted by you) is that it is far too easy to misread it as "Increases by one the population limit in areas containing only holders' tokens". Moving that apostrophe one character to the right like that is very easy to do, especially when reading it out loud, and it makes a very big difference in terms of game effects. There is enough people misunderstanding it as it is, so I want to be crystal clear at this.
And regarding the sentence with relation, "less" (and variations) is used 29 times, while "decrease" (and variations) only is used a single time. So I must disagree.


I agree fully. I've clarified the issue in the rulebook, and it probably should be clarified on the card as well, but as I don't have any good alternative either, I'm kind of waiting for concrete proposals.


Well, it should in fact be "area adjacent by land", but otherwise you are correct . Fixed for the next draft.


Lost is indeed much better, fixed for the next draft.


I opted for "Holder may discard two commodity cards instead of reducing any cities.", think that is as clear, and more in style with the other cards.


Exactly what problems do you have with them? From experience, I've found that, unfortunately, native English speakers doesn't help very much with linguistic problems in this forum So while it would be great if someone did chime in, I think we must, unfortunately, assume we are on our own. And while I'm not a native speaker, I'm quite decent at English, especially linguistics (not so much at pronunciations, but that isn't applicable to this issue), and I find nothing wrong with those sentences.


You are correct in that your alternative (2) would be more similar to the generic case, such as (1) above. Unfortunately, it is also much more odd and tricky English, making it harder to parse. However, another option would be:
2) FAMINE: Five less unit points are lost by a secondary victim.
More natural than your proposal and closer to the generic case than the current text. What do you think?


The only thing wrong with "you" is that it would be very inconsistent with the rulebook, which, naturally, must be written in third person.