What about starting with: "In any area containing only your tokens, the population limit is increased by one"

This change in addition to change all 'holder''s to 'you/your'

What my problem is: I believe "replace with" is always wrong and "replace by" is good.

the second is, that grammatically i believe "used in the same turn" is always wrong and "used the same turn' is good.

But as I am no Native English either, I don't know for sure 100%

I really think there can be a difference in this.

The rulebooks describes 'what happens if'. The card directly speaks to the user. like in any other game a card says "DO THIS"
Example: "Get out of jail Free. Pass to Go" "You may collect $ from each player" "Conquer 24 areas" (RISK) (and not "Holder gets out of jail free" in third person) Though those Monopoly rules would be clarified in the rulebook as "holder should move his token to 'GO' and collect $'

I really proclaim to change all to 'you/your' on the advances, though keep the term 'holder' in the rules.

If we do go with "your" rather than "holder's" (will post on that issue separately later, no time right now), that is great.


Well, I'm not either, but looking at it I think are both right and wrong.
While I think "x is replaced with y" and is grammatically valid, I do think that both "replace x with y" and "x is replaced by y" are better. "replace x by y", as you seams to suggest (unless the missing d is a typo) is definitely not valid though. I've changed the new draft to "x is replaced by y". "

As for "used [in] the same turn". You are correct that "in" is wrong. It should be "during". I missed it, as the preposition is different in Swedish. (There is no preposition with a single translation, in either direction. The Swedish preposition used in the corresponding Swedish sentence is usually translated to "in", but in this context it should be translated to "during".)
Dropping the preposition altogether is also probably valid, but imho not as good. Changed to during for the next draft.

In the Netherlands this is very common mistake. We would say lines like: "It is used IN the same turn" and "Do you know THAT we did something?". This is a very Dutch way of speaking, so that a lot of people (including myself) use these little words in a line, where we shouldn't.

All this apart from the word "during" which sometimes is used in Dutch too.

I was wondering, in what stage are we in deciding what the final attributes texts are going to be.
(apart from my poll on 'politics', 'monotheism', 'fundamentalism' http://www.civproject.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=456
and 'wonder of the world' http://www.civproject.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=457)

When it comes to creating the new layout I'm waiting for the attributes text to be def. I was wondering if we are waiting on eachother or not?

At the moment I think we are quite finished, with the possible exception of rewriting everything to use "you" instead of "holder's" etc.
Personally I don't really like the idea, though I'm not dead set on opposing it.

I've uploaded the latest versions of the texts, as I have them on my computer:
AdvancesQuickChart(2.10-draft2).odt and AdvancesQuickChart(2.10-draft2).pdf

After a couple of weeks of absence I returned to the forum once again...
Last time I printed Jonno's last draft version of the Advances Quick Chart, but I did not dive into it yet. Today I did, and you can find my findings below.

Gerart


AGRICULTURE
Although I like the sentence about the effects of city reduction, I was wondering if it is necessary to state that this effect is indirectly; it feels quite directly to me, so perhaps "Lessens the effects of city reduction" will do as well.

ANATOMY / CALENDAR / MEDICINE
For CALENDER, I prefer Jonno's suggestion "Five less unit points are lost by a secondary victim." of 2008-01-29 over "A secondary victim loses five less unit points.", for passive/active voice consistency. The same way of phrasing can be used for 'ANATOMY' and 'MEDICINE'.

DRAMA AND POETRY / DEMOCRACY / MUSIC
During my quest for active/passive voice consistency, I noticed that these three cards have the following text: "CIVIL WAR: Increases the first faction by...". I suggest changing this to: "CIVIL WAR: The first faction is increased by...", to be more in line with the other Advances.

ENGINEERING
1) In the first sentence, 'needs' should be used rather than 'need'.

2) I was wondering if it would be better to make a small change to the sentence about FLOOD. I suggest: "A maximum of seven unit points from a flood plain are destroyed, or a city is reduced rather than destroyed". This would make (more) clear difference between the two types of Flood that can occur, depending on the player's presence on a flood plain.

3) In the last sentence the word 'Volcanic' misses the letter 'l'.

4) The last sentences uses the word 'voids', which has (as far as I know) the same meaning as 'nullifies', which is used in a couple of other instances. I suggest using this word here too.

FUNDAMENTALISM
Currently the text states "adjacent land area", which should be "area adjacent by land", according to the last definitions.

MONARCHY
The text still states "his or her", which was decided to replace by only "his".

TRADE ROUTES
To be more in line with the card that state "During the Special Abilities Phase...", I suggest rephrasing of the first sentence to: "During the Return of Excess Commodity Cards phase, holder may exchange commodity cards for treasury tokens at twice the face value."

Another point is (still) the case of "holder" versus "you". In order to continue the discussion, I changed the texts of all card containing the word holder in the list below. In general I prefer these phrasings.

Two more comments:

1) I applied my suggestions from my last reply in these texts
2) The texts of both "Cultural Ascendancy" and "Diplomacy" already contained the word "your" rather than "holder" in the last version.


ADVANCED MILITARY
You may use tokens from areas adjacent by land as casualties in battle, but must leave at least one token in each area used this way.
CIVIL WAR: Five unit points from both factions are destroyed.
CIVIL DISORDER: One additional city is reduced.
Nullifies Cultural Ascendancy.

AGRICULTURE
In areas containing your units only, the population limit is increased by one. Lessens the effects of city reduction.
Does not work for the primary victim during the resolution of FAMINE.

ANATOMY
Upon purchase, you may immediately acquire up to two (dual-)science cards with a face value of less than 100 points each.
EPIDEMIC: Eight less unit points are lost by a primary victim. Five less unit points are lost by a secondary victim.

CARTOGRAPHY
You may buy cards from the second trade card stack for seven treasury tokens per card.
You may buy cards from the seventh trade card stack for fifteen treasury tokens per card.
PIRACY: One additional city is replaced.

COINAGE
You may increase or decrease your tax rate by one.
CORRUPTION: Five additional commodity card points must be discarded.

DIASPORA
During the Special Abilities Phase, your may place a city or tokens up to the population limit from stock in an empty area, provided that an unblocked path can be traced to target area.
Your hand limit of trade cards is reduced by one.

ENGINEERING
Any player attacking your cities needs one additional token per city. Your city is replaced by an additional token.
You require one less token when attacking an enemy city. The defending city is replaced by one less token.
FLOOD: A maximum of seven unit points from a flood plain are destroyed, or a city is reduced rather than destroyed.
EARTHQUAKE: Your city is reduced rather than destroyed.
VOLCANIC ERUPTION OR EARTHQUAKE: Nullifies the effects of Urbanism.

FUNDAMENTALISM
REGRESSION: Your A.S.T. marker is moved back one additional space.
During the Special Abilities Phase, you may destroy all units in one adjacent area by land belonging to a player not holding Fundamentalism or Philosophy. Pirate cities and barbarian tokens may not be destroyed.

LIBRARY
Discounts the cost of any one Civilization Advance by forty points, provided that this card is purchased simultaneously with Library.
REGRESSION: Your A.S.T. marker is moved back one less space.

METALWORKING
In conflict, you may remove tokens after all players that don't hold Metalworking.

MILITARY
You may construct and maintain ships, and move after all players that don't hold Military.
CIVIL WAR: Five unit points from both factions are destroyed.
CIVIL DISORDER: One additional city is reduced.
Nullifies Diplomacy.

MINING
You may buy cards from the sixth trade card stack for thirteen treasury tokens per card.
You may buy cards from the eighth trade card stack for sixteen treasury tokens per card.
SLAVE REVOLT: Five additional tokens can not be used for city support.
Treasury tokens are worth two points when buying civilization advances.
MONARCHY
You may increase your tax rate by one.
BARBARIAN HORDES: Five less barbarian tokens are used.
TYRANNY: Five additional unit points are annexed.

MONOTHEISM
ICONOCLASM AND HERESY: One additional city is reduced.
During the Special Abilities Phase, you may replace from stock exactly all units in one area adjacent by land belonging to a player not holding Monotheism or Theology. Pirate cities and barbarian tokens may not be converted.

MONUMENT
Upon purchase, you acquire ten points of credit tokens in any combination of colors. These credits can not be used during the same turn.

NAVAL WARFARE
Ships may carry one additional token.
You may use ships instead of tokens as casualties in conflict.
CIVIL WAR: Five unit points from both factions are destroyed.
CIVIL DISORDER: One additional city is reduced.
PIRACY: One less city is replaced.

POLITICS
BARBARIAN HORDES: Five additional barbarian tokens are used.
During the Special Abilities Phase, you may either replace from treasury exactly all units in one adjacent area belonging to a player not holding Politics or Cultural Ascendancy, or gain five treasury tokens from stock. Pirate cities and barbarian tokens may not be annexed.

PROVINCIAL EMPIRE
BARBARIAN HORDES: Five additional barbarian tokens are used.
TYRANNY: Five additional unit points are annexed.
During the Special Abilities Phase, you may collect one commodity card with a face value of at least two (opponent's choice) from five different adjacent players not holding Provincial Empire or Public Works.

PUBLIC WORKS
Your cities cost one additional token to construct.
Areas with your cities may contain one token.
Nullifies Provincial Empire.

RHETORIC
You may buy cards from the third trade card stack for nine treasury tokens per card.

THEOCRACY
SLAVE REVOLT: Five additional tokens can not be used for city support.
ICONOCLASM AND HERESY: You may discard two commodity cards instead of reducing any cities.

TRADE EMPIRE
EPIDEMIC: Five additional unit points are destroyed.
CYCLONE: One additional city is reduced.
During the Special Abilities Phase, you may ask a player not holding Trade Empire or Wonder of the World for a named commodity card. If this player does not have this card, you may ask up to two different players for the same card this way. If a player holds the named card, you collect this one card.

TRADE ROUTES
During the Return of Excess Commodity Cards phase, you may exchange commodity cards for treasury tokens at twice the face value.

UNIVERSAL DOCTRINE
SUPERSTITION: One additional city is reduced.
During the Special Abilities Phase, you may replace from stock up to five pirate or barbarian units in one adjacent area, provided that an unblocked path can be traced to target area.

URBANISM
You may use up to four tokens from adjacent areas to build a city in an area without a city site.
VOLCANIC ERUPTION OR EARTHQUAKE: Four unit points are destroyed from areas adjacent to the destroyed or reduced city.
WONDER OF THE WORLD
Upon purchase, you acquire twenty points of credit tokens in any combination of colors. These credits can not be used during the same turn.
Nullifies Trade Empire.

WRITTEN RECORD
Upon purchase, you acquire five points of credit tokens of any
color. These credits can not be used during the same turn.

I could find this line confusing and would leave it out totally

When changing holder to YOU, I'd prefer:

AGRICULTURE
"Increases by one the population limit in areas containing only your tokens .

Does not work for the primary victim during the resolution of FAMINE."

Without reading though this whole topic again, I was wondering:

Are all attributes now in order of resolution? thus:
1. calamity-FX
2. Special Abitlies.

Otherwise, I'd prefer to put the Special ability of Fundamentalism above the CalmityFX.



If we order all attributes in order of resolution, is it an option to order all calmity FX in order of stacknumber? Thus for Engineering:
1. Volcanic Eurption
2. Eartquake
3. Flood

I really think, the line "for each area" should be added, because you do not wait untill all players removed their tokens, it IS for each area seperately.

Beside, you also do not wait until a player removed all his tokens for that area, but JUST ONE.

So I believe it should be:

METALWORKING
In conflict, for each area you may remove a token after all players that don't hold Metalworking have removed one of theirs.

This way, the card could still be interpreted as that you could recieve one card from both the 2nd and the 3rd player. (though you may "collect this one card" could be read as ONLY one card per player)

So we could change it to:

During the Special Abilities Phase, you may ask up to three players not holding Trade Empire or Wonder of the World for a single named commodity card, one at a time. From the first player holding the named card, you collect this one card, and this process stops.

maybe leaving out "one at a time"

It's a small detail, and you normally wouldn't recieve one credit per color, it would not hurt even to make it more clear and add "one".

WRITTEN RECORD
Upon purchase, you acquire five points of credit tokens of any
one color. These credits can not be used during the same turn.

Well, it's indirect in the sense that it don't state "keep one more unit when reducing cities" but "population limit is increased by one" and city reduction is to population limit. So there is one level of indirection. I think that has to be stated, or people might think that they stack...


As stated above, the problem is that quite a lot of new people misses this (arguably obvious) effect without a reminder from an experienced players, and the idea is that CivProject should be playable even for a group of completely new players.


OK, changed.


Changed


Oops


Done, with an extra "coastal" inserted before "city", to clarify it even more.


Oops again


Actually, there is a difference between the words, though minor. A nullified ability doesn't exist and can't be used. A voided ability exists, and can be used, but don't affect the outcome. Very minor difference, but it does apply to this situation. Additionally, "Nullifies" is only used regarding special abilities, not calamity effects, so imho there is no inconsistency.


Good catch, seems I missed it.


Oops, seems I only did the search-and-replace in the rulebook. (and that before copy-pasting from the quick chart to the rulebook.


Changed.


I've changed that to "holder's" for the sake of consistency, at least until we figure out what to do in the end.


Supposed to be. I might have missed something, if so, please point them out and I'll fix them.


Was supposed to be that too, must have missed Engineering. Moved down flood to last.


Imho that is even worse, as if one starts to be overly specific, people assume that you are overly specific, and thus they might think that you only mean by area, and not by area and removal...
Still not 100% with the current text though, so more suggestions are welcome.


I'd prefer not using any iterative instructions in the rules, as they are just plain confusing when reading through them linearly. We already have this for barbarian hordes, but that is by far the most complex special case we have, so that is excused, but I still don't want to include it more than necessary.

That said, I'm not 100% satisfied with the current text either, so let the suggestions come.


As you get "credit tokens" and they don't come in smaller denominations than 5, it makes no change, but the clarification can't hurt.


Then we get to the discussion of "holder" vs "you".

My arguments basically boils down to:
1) In the rulebook, "you" isn't an option, as it has to be readable by all players, whether or not they holds the card in question.
2) Previous versions was a mess with multiple texts for the same attributes. With the current 2.10 drafts this has been merged to a consistent usage on cards and quick carts as well as in the rulebook (§30). I'd like to keep that.
3) The only way to keep both (1) and (2) above is to use "holder" on the cards.

That said, the texts with "you" does sound slightly more natural, but as I'd have to maintain the "holder" version for the rulebook anyway, we still don't get rid of the artificial sounding texts...