I know I read that they found the Credit token system easier on one of the playtest posts.

I think Jonno found a solution to the Empiricism/Literacy question: they provide 5 Group specific Credits and 5 Multi-Color Credits. This still keeps the numbers reasonable.

I will try crunching the numbers tonight, comparing Jonno's new chart and kruppman's idea of cross-Group credits coming from cheap cards only.

I don't think Coyote's suggestions is bad, but I think yours is simpler and as effective. I thought the new credits system was better then the original, and that the tokens made it simpler, but I don't know what the others thought. I don't think we had any completely new players was there, so I woudn't know about that.

Yes, the chits were good. Although there were still the specific credits, but if those are eliminated or given chits it will make everything easier.

The problem with giving them all specific chits would be that you would need a gazillion of them because each advance gives one unique bonus.

You'll "only" need 522 tokens for 18 players, which is 7 pages at the same sizte as the other tokens. Over all, it's more pages than ordinary tokens, so I see your point. I was using the credit quichchart to se what card gave a specific bonus to the card I wanted, and I thought it worked for me at least.

I and Sabelkatten did not think that the chits made it more easy to calculate credits. It is just as easy to check the cards if you put them in order. You still have to add the credits together each round. It was easier to sum up the credits on a piece of paper. Then you still have the problem with specific credits.

In our playtest, I really missed a good cross-reference sheet for all the civcards with bonuses. Extra tokens are unneccessary when civcards are avaiable.

Staffan

The idea was to use the chits for general credits, which you chould trade in for bigger credit tokens so you would not have to add so many numbers. This will be easier now when the tokens comes in denominations of 5, 10, 20 and 40. For specific credits you have the Credits Quick Chart. On it you can easy see what advance gives a bonus to the advance you are going to by, just as you could do at the cross reference, but you can't do on the civcards.

I did understand when Henrik (Crete) started to use pen and paper instead of tokens when he got to many, but I can't see how it would be more difficult to use tokens + quickchart then the cross reference. And a cross reference with 51 cards on it would have to be printed with a verry small font indeed.
This not said that we couldn't create an optionally cross reference for people wanting it (though they would have to write down and remember on what field they put their additional credits from Written Record and Monument).

When you still have to use reference cards etc, there's no use for trade chits. Why not skip the idea of card-specific credits?

The idea with Cits is that you dont have to mark what rows you have and add 20 numbers together, but just have to add 3 or 4 tokens together, and perhaps read on one line to see if you have any specific bonus.
As for your question I don't have any good answare, more then that specific credits does make sence sometimes, for example Metalworking -> Military or Masonry -> Engineering. I must agree that the game would be much simpler without them, but as we joked when playig, the game would be much simpler if we just rolled a die to detirmine the winner. Easiest is not always best...

Four different levels of cards that go together well, then...

1 (most strict, one-way). Prerequisites (Engineering -> Mining etc). These are left out of the Expansion
2 (less strict, still one-way). Card-specific credit (Masonry -> Engineering). You want to buy the cards in the correct order but don't have to.
3 (both ways). Cards of the same color. Here, it doesn't matter in which order you buy the cards, but when you've bought one you'll want the other one.
4. (nothing in common). Cards of different color.

So, I propose to leave out card-specific credits and re-instate the prerequisite system, albeit with just a few pairs. Those are easier to handle than the specific credits and you also get these very cute miniature card icons!

The pre-requisite system is gone and will not come back. It was simply getting too complex with so many cards. New users could easily screw thier entire game up by not getting something that was required.

I'm open to suggestions on how to fix the single credit advances though (if it even needs fixing).

In my opinion it doesn't, but as you have noticed, Aron don't agree with me. But you are the boss, and I'll fix rules/Cards as you say.

BTW have you taken a look at my proposal (http://jon.severinsson.net/civproject/a ... oposal.doc) yet?

I sent you an email about it just now...

I got it now. I'll fix cards and rulebook asap.

Thanks to Mark E (Coyote13). I have the RoR scans! hopefully I can work on it a bit tonight...