As we were playing a game of Civ with 7 players yesterday we came to discuss the card "Wonder of the World"



Somebody said: "In any game I know, where a 'Wonder of the World' is included, this is THE ULTIMATE GOAL. Or at least very important and powerfull"

And as we were discussing, we realized that no-one ever purchases this card. It's just to expensive for its attributes to not to go for other cards.

(As I speak for myself, I would not purchase it, before I allready own 'politics' , 'monotheism', 'trade empire', 'provincial empire', or more options like that.)


We all agreed that the card itself isn't wrong. but it should be more important. It should contain all it does now, but maybe it should contain more. Like more victorypoints, or (like Anatomy) give you free cards (even in the 100-200 range)

When I think of the pc-game sid meier's civ, the wotw 'lib af alexandria' gives you any advance all other players have developed. Maybe this is too powerfull in our game, but maybe it isn't. This might be the change in strategy, to try and purchase cards that no other player purchases, then buy WOTW and gain free cards that, say, 5 players allready have. Or more, or all, or depending on the number of players, or neighbours, or something like that.

This is just an idea.

Maybe there are other option to make Wotw some sort of ultimate card. like the other expensive cards are now.

I completely agree that Wonder of the World isn't the super-duper-card it deserves to be, but I don't really like your options.

I don't like the idea of a card giving extra VP (I like the simplicity of the current idea). I was against it when proposed for Anatomy, and I'm against it now. I also don't like the idea of if being "merely" an upgraded Anatomy, mostly because I don't see what the knowledge of human anatomy, and possession of one of the wonders of the world, have in common. Also, wonder of the world doesn't deserve any version of "merely"...

In Sid Meier's Civilization, the Library of Alexandria gives you one random free advancement per turn that at least two other players have (if there is any such advancements you don't already have), which, while not very overpowered even for CivProject, doesn't really translate well into a boardgame (I certainly don't want the overhead of keeping track of how many civilizations hold each advancement). One could probably come up with a balanced version of this that works in a boardgame, but I'm still not sure it's such a good idea, and I think I have one better (see below).

I've played with the idea to raise the price to 300 (so it's the most expensive card in the game by definition, as the three current cost groups are 50-90, 100-190 and 200-290) and have it required to enter the finish square on the A.S.T. Thus the game wouldn't end (except by time limit) without at least one player purchasing it, and those last 5 VP would be impossible to get without it (though it wouldn't necessarily guarantee you to get them). What do you think?

I've also thought about replacing the 18 identical wonder of the world cards with 7 different cards, priced the same (300), but with different names, colours and attributes. In this variant game (this would never be accepted in the core rulebook, but could make it into the optional rulebook) no two players could buy the same wonder of the world, and no one player could buy two different wonders of the world. It would be required to hold one Wonder of the World to enter the finish square on the AST (whether or not it would be rquired in the standard game), and thus at most 7 players could enter it in any game, but I don't really see that happening in any case...
However, I've never actually made a real proposal of what colour(s) and attributes each of the 7 wonders should have.

Well, in the first place, I wanted to start a discussion about it here.

The option of making the requirement for the last AST place seems a little strange to me. A nation can do without a wonder of the world. But what it meant in history is, attracting foreigners and along with it TRADE, wealth, status, fame.

Looking at Trade Empire, and Provincial Empire. These two gain trade goods from other players. But these allready exist.

It could contain something like "every turn a free trade card from stack x"
or "every turn a free trade card from your choice"


Wonder of The world should be the ultimate card in the game, but it doesn't end with it. Besides 300 point is so hard to reach, that attributes like this, would make the 1st place player remain potential winner. When the card stays 270, it's not easy, but still possible to purchase.


the option for 7 different ones could be a variant-rule. I like that idea, and have thought of it ever since my first game of Advanced Civilization. (even thought of minatures). But realized this can only be a optional thing. It's just to different from the game we are playing. It fits better in a game where you expand cities. (like Settlers of Catan, cities and knights)

Yes, but no nation is "complete" or "finished" without one...


Yes


Note: {Trade,Provincial} Empire redistributes wealth. WotW would have generated wealth.


Yes, right up my wealth generating line of thought. However, I'm quite sceptic to generating more wealth in the game, due to game balance issues.


Honestly, I've bought advances for over 400 points (not counting credits) in once turn on occasions, so a 300 point card isn't impossible or far fetched, just a worth challenge. As for "end with it", I'm not proposing it should end the game, just that it should be a prerequisite to end the game.


You are correct, as I stated myself, that line of thought was only for a variant.

Anyway, this is just ideas I've kicked around back in my head, not proposals for actual inclusion in the rules...

I disagree on that. I believe a nation can do easily without, but it should be a very 'wanted' item.

History: while the colloseum is NOT granted wondership, the Romans never had an official wonder of the world. Nevertheless, it's (one of) the most important civilization(s) in history.



There you have point. But it could gain you the lesser trade cards. say a 1, 2, and 3 card or so. Wether that's too much, it should be playtested.



I disagree on that. I 'wonder' what other players' opinons are at this.
For me, I don't believe a civilization cannot progress without a wonder of the world. This in addation to the thing mentioned elsewhere, that I think you should not be forced to develop something. I believe it should only be a valuable addition to a nation.

I think the idea that it is needed to get to the final square has some merit, but also a great drawback: it means there is a 'must-buy' advance, which to my mind is in conflict with the 'choose your own path' feeling of Civ project.

How about this idea: when you purchase Wonder of the World, you immediately advance 1 place on the AST (providing you have the pre-requisites to do so, namely enough cities and the right civ advances to enter a new era if any).
This would make it a nice counter to the Regression calamity, and give nations that have fallen behind a chance to catch up, or give a nation close to winning a chance to end the game with a bang (what better way to prove your greatness than by building a wonder of the world?).

For some extra spice, you could even include one or both of the following:
- Wonder of the World can be bought more than once (but maybe not twice in the same turn) - after all, 2 (3?) of the original 7 wonders were in Egypt, for example
- With WotW, you advance 1 spot on the AST regardless of your number of cities (but only on the turn you buy it). After all, who needs cities when you have the Pyramids or the Great Wall of China

The only reason being that it wasn't built at the time (140AD) the list was compiled.


3rd stack is definitely too much, especially if you combine it with Rhetoric. Getting 4 cards from the same stack each turn, and it's no problem getting a full set every turn, and two on occasion, each worth 243 or 192 points.


This is a valid concern. Note however, that you can win the game without leading on the A.S.T. And in the variant game version, there would be several different paths available.


Interesting ideas, but I don't really like the idea of an advance that gives something just the turn it's purchased. Perhaps Wonder of the World should just reduce the required amount of cities to progress by one, I don't think that would be too overpowered.


Actually, the Egyptians only had one wonder (the pyramids). The lighthouse of Alexandria was built by the Greek. The Greek however, had multiple wonders, but it was a rigged game, as it was a Greek who made the list...

Hey, I really like that idea. It's hold the middle between extra victory points and the prerequisit of Jonno's idea.

This way people really like to buy this card, but have no use when they do not meet the requirements. A Nation with no cities and a wonder is a regressing nation. (egypt) An early wonder can make a nation progress, but the nation can still be held back later if progression fails.

The other thing is, I think, only nations really wanting to win are buying this card. If you are 5th place or so, you'd rather purchase valuable cards in the game, to later buy the wonder.

What i don't like about you idea are the two other options. Max one wonder per nation, and you SHOULD have the requirements to progress. (see above) But those two could be added to the optional rulebook.


I change my opinion now some form of what you mentioned here!

Yes, I also like the immediate advancement-option (though maybe the card itself shouldn't be 3 points also, that would make 8!). The problem with other options is that giving credits or other advancements or trade cards is pretty pointless since almost everyone who is even thinking about buying it will probably buy it in the last turn, maybe one turn before that but not earlier. So only points (=AST-position) will have any meaning (also historically: you can indeed compensate for a regression for instance).

I'm for seeing what a larger group thinks. I think dealing with it being worth as many as 8 points is going to be a problem, since we want to avoid special VP rules (all cards are worth their value/100 except WotW). The fact that it doesn't help someone in the front of the AST is a nice side effect (outside the civ card vps)

As stated before, I'm not really fond of one off deals, but as we already have two, I guess I could add just one more, and you are correct in that it does make more sense historically than lowering the requirements.

However, if we do add it, you should get it whether you meet the requirements or not (though ofcourse, if you don't meet the requirements of the *next* area, you won't progress at the end of the turn, nor in fact until you do meet them), and you shouldn't be able to end the game the same turn by purchasing WotW (thus you would not get the bonus if you already are in the 15th A.S.T. square, nor if you are in the 14th A.S.T. square and no one else already is in the 15th A.S.T. square.).

I do think it would still be too powerful, even if we did increase the cost to 300 points, and reducing it's normal 3 VP is not an option, as I'll veto all "special VP rules". So I still don't quite like the idea.

Personally I still prefer my original suggestion (prerequisite for the "Finnish" square"), but as most of you seems to dislike it, I think I'll have to drop it...

I think the 8 VP is out of the question. Therefore an option with a automatic progression in this way is off I guess.

But an extra defense against regression is historically reasonable and not too powerfull in our game, isn't it? (though a civ with a wonder can still regress in real life, like all civs in history have)

A player goaling for 9 cities each turn really wants this advance, cause it defends totally against regression. Eventhough, along with library (and fundamentalism) it isn't overpowered. It doesn't create VP's and it isn't required, though it makes it a lot easier to get the final place on the AST. Even in the ealy-mid game if that would happen.

Besides in encourages players to goal for 9 cities each turn and therefore go for the max in all options.

Maybe the price of 300 will be better in this case, cause it'll only really be bought by players with 9 cities, that can afford it.

The cards 'cult.asc' 'prov.emp' , 'adv.mil' 'anatomy' 'trad.emp' and 'dias' will be bought merely by players with 7-8-9 cities

What do you think?

Yes, but what's the difference with library then? That's cheaper and gives 40 credits (once).

there you have a point

Agree.


It wouldn't make Wonder of the Word to powerful (not even without a cost increase). The question is if it makes Fundamentalism to powerful and/or regression to mild. Any thoughts on that?


The difference would be that while Library gives 40 credits once, WotW gives 20 credits (to one colour) forever, and protects against Trade Empire.
Not much of a difference, but enough.