Civilization: The Expansion Project
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Mining - strength of advance
https://dev.civproject.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=68		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  busybody [ 2003-12-25 9:18:07 ]
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Before, Mining allowed you - sort of - one additional card of whatever you needed (but you actually didn't get the card of course.) You didn't have to pay for it. It could be from any set (Salt-3 or Gold-9 for example.)

Now, Mining only allows you to spend 9 treasury to get a draw from the 6 stack (which could include the tradeable calamnity, but at least not the non-tradable.)

Is Mining worth it now? Or was Mining actually overpowered in the original writeup?

I wasn't seeing a ton of Mining purchased in games - which may be more due to the cost than anything. Basically a moderate-to-high cost card with a prerequisite isn't going to be terribly frequent regardless of the utility.

If the cost was reduced to zero, and you could draw from any stack that had mining-type cards, but had to discard if wasn't one, it would still be weaker from the original version.

Options: decreasing the treasury cost, maybe to zero. Decreasing the base value of the card. Add in a special discount from something (Eng?, Masonry? but at least it wouldn't be the only one to a a discount from a prereq.)
Author:  Velusion [ 2003-12-26 22:47:42 ]
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I, for one, felt mining was a bit over-powered before. The reason I changed it was because of the new trading mechanism in large games, would make it TOO nice.

However... I'm starting to have second thoughts on this one (as in the cost is too high). Perhaps I should lower the coast to 5? Zero is not an option, because simply having a card to trade with is pretty valuable.

What are everyone elses thought?
Author:  Pureblade [ 2004-01-01 16:26:39 ]
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Heh, one of my "suggestions" was actually going to be a rant about the over-powerful Mining card now getting even better... Then it suddenly dawned on me that this new ability _replaced_ the old one instead of supplementing it. *phew* And by the way, my playing group _was_ seeing a lot of Mining purchases. The benefits vastly outweighed the Slave Revolt aggravation, IMHO.

By the old rules; if you could get Mining (relatively) early in a game, you were sure to get the discounted price back threefold, which is more than you could say about most other advances. Not having played the extended version (yet), I agree that something should be done with the original mining, but I'm not sure that the current solution is the best.

Actually, I think the effect busybody is suggesting is for the better, although you would then have to restrict the number of drawn cards to one per round, of course. The concept of modifying the Civilization rules at all is quite new to me, so my subconscious mind might still come up with a suggestion of its own, given time. For now, I'll be happy adding my vote to busybody's suggestion. :)
Author:  Pureblade [ 2004-01-01 19:04:04 ]
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How about keeping Mining in its reduced form (for example according to busybody's suggestion), perhaps at a lower cost (120?), and then creating a new advance with the same effect as the original Mining (including new commodities like Pearls). This new advance could be named "Detail Smithery" (the craft of making small and delicate things like jewelry). It should be rather expensive (220?) and have a prerequisite (Metalworking?) to ensure that it doesn't come into play too early. This would obviously be a craft (perhaps replacing Trade Routes as a craft if that's needed - see the separate thread about this).
Author:  Velusion [ 2004-01-02 2:38:24 ]
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Adding a new Advance is not possible right now. Too many credits, etc... would have to re-evaluated.

Hmm... I think I'll try a cost of 7T first (the same as Rhetoric). Getting an extra 6 card every turn seems too extream to me. That 7T for a 6th level card is still a great deal.
Author:  Velusion [ 2004-01-02 2:38:55 ]
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Velusion wrote:
Adding a new Advance is not possible right now. Too many credits, etc... would have to re-evaluated.

Hmm... I think I'll try a cost of 7T first (the same as Rhetoric). Getting an extra 6 card every turn for free seems just too much for me. That 7T for a 6th level card is still a great deal.
Author:  Pureblade [ 2004-01-02 3:57:39 ]
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I'm aware that a new round of adding sciences it quite a bit into the future. But you could store the idea for the next advancements rebalancing, if you don't think the idea's horrible. ;)

Hm... You're right that the 6th level trade cards always gives you a metal card, thus removing the chance that the card you draw will be discarded. Additionally, if you draw a card that would possibly be discarded, you actually have to show it to the others you are playing with (else it would be too tempting to cheat for some), and that's not a good thing. If the revealed card was a calamity, it could influence the trading.
Author:  phil_carson [ 2004-01-02 9:08:43 ]
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I agree that the original mining is too powerful, but now is it too weak?

Consider that you have gone from a card that can boost a set of gold, gems, silver, bronze, or iron to a card that gives you a 6 card. (Either a bronze, silver, or disaster)

That's a huge change.

Example 1:

You have a set of 3 gems. Before, you could exchange that for 128 points. Now you can exchange that for 78 (72 points + 6 points for bronze) - or find someone who will trade you a gems for a bronze.

Example 2:

You have a set of 3 silver. Before, you could exchange that for 96 points. Now you can exchange that for 60 (54 points + 6 for bronze) - or find someone willing to trade you silver for bronze.

Example 3:

You have a set of 3 bronze. Before, you could exchange that for 96 points. Now you can exchange that for 96 points.

Generally mining increased the points values of the sets that you trade in as well as the frequency that larger point sets we traded in.

Don't foret that the more people who have mining (old style) the more people are after metals and the less likely you are to get them. I have had turns (when I have had mining) that no-one would trade any metals to me. I couldn't even get any iron.

Some thoughts to consider for the new mining:
* Having people being able to buy in the six stack will mean that it's possible (maybe even probable) that you will empty the six stack.
- Other people miss out on cards (double if they have mining)
- Disasters will come out more frequently.
* Benefits of mining is limited / concentrated to bronze and silver, making them worth more, and the other metals worth less.
* I have no fear of slave revolt, slave revolt is weak. Even Earthquake picks on slave revolt in the playground. ;)
* Maybe civil war could be move to the 6 stack, or slave revolt (see last comment)
Author:  phil_carson [ 2004-01-03 13:53:03 ]
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Oh another thing I didn't see before, Engineering can has the pre-rec of Masonry, which effectivly stops Mining being purchased in the earily game.

Which may very well balance mining without changing it's abilites.

Also this means that road building will get purchased less as well. :( Given that in most games tht I play road building never gets purchased, why make it harder to buy? You might like to change the pre-rec to Masonry.
Author:  Velusion [ 2004-01-03 20:46:53 ]
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Roadbuilding has less negative aspects now... and with the zero regions more use...
Author:  busybody [ 2004-01-04 17:47:48 ]
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Velusion wrote:
Adding a new Advance is not possible right now. Too many credits, etc... would have to re-evaluated.

Hmm... I think I'll try a cost of 7T first (the same as Rhetoric). Getting an extra 6 card every turn seems too extream to me. That 7T for a 6th level card is still a great deal.


We did a 10 player game on Jan 1st - Rhetoric was well used. Once or two times, even twice. Now, Mining was never purchased by anyone - partly due to the cost and the *two* prerequisites and probably this latest change. (Oddly, Engineering was a late game purchase for most of the board, but Agri was an early purchase for *everybody*.)

I think the 8T for a 6-card is going to solid. That's actually 16T for 2 6-cards, or 24T for 3 6-cards. :: twitch ::
Author:  busybody [ 2004-01-04 17:50:07 ]
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Velusion wrote:
Roadbuilding has less negative aspects now... and with the zero regions more use...


This is more of a side-thread.

The Himilayas become the freeway of the world (which doesn't feel quite right.) But then we haven't had a game on that part of the map yet, so perhaps it works better in actual play. (I've played two games on CraigB's map.)
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