Civilization: The Expansion Project
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Why is Military cheaper?
https://dev.civproject.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=260		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  alloowishus [ 2006-01-02 14:09:33 ]
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I always thought 180 was a good price because it is such a powerful card. Is it because of the addition of Advanced Military?
Author:  Jon.G [ 2006-01-03 7:38:47 ]
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The good thing of having military at 150 is that everybody can be able to buy it during the game, despite this I agree with you that 180 would be more appropriated.
Anyway and in my opinion military cards are with much the most powerfull cards in the game. Advanced military it's really a "big tank" card, not only due to the ability to move the last but also allowing you to remove tokens from a neighboring area in combat, this is an overpowering advantage, in my opinion unbalancing the game. The ability of moving the last should be enough for this card, and I would raise the cost of advanced military 20 points more putting it on the same level as Cultural Ascendancy or Wonder of the world and above anatomy, diaspora or trade empire, all of them more expensive and less powerfull than advanced military. The effect of agravating civil wars lots of times it's avoid accumulating other calamities and it's not enough to counter so such big advantages.

Jon G.
www.civiboard.com/hellas/index.html
Author:  Velusion [ 2006-01-04 7:10:43 ]
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Many people I know still think military and advanced miliatary are very poor cards, because they don't directly help you meed required victory conditions (aquire civ cards or cities).

I had one player tell me that he would never consider advanced military because by the time the card is actually feasible to purchace there are so many other more powerful card that directly influence your end score.

I've heard people on both sides of the issues chime in, but I've yet to see a game were someone with military ran away with the game, nor have a seen a single playtest game where advanced military has even been purchaced! If someone has playtested the game and actually had advanced military unbalance the game please speak up!
Author:  Jon.G [ 2006-01-04 9:03:52 ]
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I disagree a bit with that people. In my opinion the most important benefit in this game it's the ability to move always the last, independently of census rules. This might be a enought advantage for a civi card like Advanced military, not having to add nothing more.
In my opinion advanced military overpowerfull characteristic it's the ability to use tokens from other bordering lands to solve conflicts. Not only because you can use that bordering lands tokens , but because you can move great amounts of tokens to this bordering lands before conflicts resolution, independently of the population limit of that land. So for example you can solve conflicts from a bordering desertic land of 0 moving there as many tokens as you are able. So it's not true that you can use tokens from adjacent areas, in fact you can use tokens from areas bordering the bordering areas!![:0] .
I personally would prefer an advanced military card working like military. Always move the last it's an enough advantage for 260.

Best regards.

Jon G.
www.civiboard.com/hellas/index.html
Author:  Velusion [ 2006-01-05 6:38:18 ]
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Well I'm all for changing it if it proves to be too powerful, but I need someone to buy it in a game first to prove it!
Author:  Jon.G [ 2006-01-05 7:45:05 ]
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In currently playing game we have two players with this card. We are in Turn 15, when we finished it I will publish all the statistics of the game here in the forum.
In advance I can say that I'm suffering this card extra-features in my own flesh, and I can say I am without counter measures despite I have at this moment 19 different civi cards, three of them above 200 points.
Another very big and overpowerful combination of advanced military could be using it with roadbuilding. In this way you would be able to use in combat tokens bordering the lands bordering the lands bordering adjacent areas that share a land border with the conflict area :oops::oops:... , Ok , I also don't understand what I have said before :D .. should be easier something like you can use in combat tokens 3 lands away from the conflict area. This might be a really powerfull combination for a militarism based player.
Bye!

Jon

Jon G.
www.civiboard.com/hellas/index.html
Author:  alloowishus [ 2006-01-06 16:48:54 ]
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Why not make it that you move last and it is like metal working + 1. So, if you have metal working and advanced military and the opponent has neither, you move last, and they take off 2 pieces before you take off 1, then 2 - 1 etc. until the combat is over. If you have AM and they have metal working, then they take off 1 first.
Author:  Jon.G [ 2006-01-08 4:35:44 ]
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I like your proposal .. but still seems very powerfull, in the same way could be only something like if you have AM you receive also the benefits of Metalworking.., or you receive Metalworking card for free .

Jon G.
www.civiboard.com/hellas/index.html
Author:  alloowishus [ 2006-01-08 14:11:24 ]
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Well, it seems less powerful (and more realistic) then using surrounding units. Also, the chances of someone not having metalworking by the time someone gets Advanced Military is pretty slim, it's more useful against barbarian hordes. If someone doesn't have AM or MW that far into the game, they deserve to get stomped. :D
Author:  Pureblade [ 2006-01-11 13:54:42 ]
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In that case, perhaps you should rename Metal Working to Bronze Working, and Advanced Military to Iron Working?
Author:  MiracleMat [ 2006-04-07 15:10:23 ]
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I am playing Hellinization online now and the Epirus player (who is in the lead) has Advanced Military AND Metalworking I think, making him all but untouchable on the board. Even if this is historically accurate regarding how powerful a well-trained militia actually was, I still feel that it unbalances the game. The card needs to have one of it's benefits taken away or else increase the cost of the card. If I ever get a chance to run my own game online or at home, I would not use the card as it stand now.
Author:  Velusion [ 2006-04-09 6:40:40 ]
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Playing in Dos Metros 6-player game I could have bought advanced military quite awhile ago. I haven't because I can't reach the leader whose neighbors are frustratingly peaceful. Right now Naval warfare looks much more helpful to me (though the game is almost over).

The goal of advanced miliatry is to put you in a dominate position on the board at the expense of calamities and a sub-optimal civ-card purchace. If you are the only civ with advanced military - you should be the dominate power militarly. I don't think that military domination necessarly automatically translates to point dominance however. In Dos Metros military dominance has been helpful - but it won't be enough.

That said - I want to hear move first hand accounts of how advanced military played out in other people's games.

Currently I'm leaning towards increaseing the weaker +300 cards rather than weakening the stronger. This has the added benifit of making people consider buying more +300 cards in the later game rather than rushing to by the cheaper cards.
Author:  Flo de Haan [ 2008-09-24 13:03:49 ]
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Quote:
Currently I'm leaning towards increaseing the weaker +300 cards rather than weakening the stronger. This has the added benifit of making people consider buying more +300 cards in the later game rather than rushing to by the cheaper cards.


An addition to this long passed discussion.

I think lowering prices of some 200+ cards does better in making more people buy those cards, because eventhough a player might be powerful on the board for the last 3-5 turns its still the VP's that count.

players rather buy ALL 0-100 cards cause that just wins. Stay in their corner and wait until the game finishes and as a sideeffect get protected well against calamities.

If you can get 3Vps for a reasonable price this gets attractive. If you want power on the board there's enough choice allready(monotheism, politics, trade empire, prov empire, cult asc.) all these cards are easy to buy because of the credits by the cheaper cards (except prov empire)

and second some bad side effects combined with high prices really keeps people form buying those cards. Maybe if you'd be able to buy ALL cards they would. (like in advanced Civ where mathematics or philosophy were impopular cards until people reached the point of being abled to buy all cards)
Author:  Adrian [ 2008-10-06 15:46:15 ]
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I think military is a very good card, andf well worth the 180.

the way i see military being bought in a non-agressive game is the following:

Imagine, one player taking a massive lead, when he does, he knows he will get struck by all the secondary effect all the other players are able to give him.

When this happens he will have to erase cities, and he will have many tokens on the map, and move 1st the following turn(s).

he then goes on the project of rebuilding the cities, but everybody with a boat will be trying to sabotage him in any way they can.

This is the spot he really needs to move last to rebuild his cities, so whenever you take a massive lead, you should buy military if you can.

this will force the other players to buy it as well to be able to compete with him (that or a tradeembargo).

this is a scenario when i think military is well worth the 180.

I have personally lost a game bc i forgot to buy military (i had about 1.5K pts in techs, and second place had about 700)
Author:  Adrian [ 2008-10-20 14:15:53 ]
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another way of making military more attractive is Increasing the price to 200, instead of decresing it to 150.


Just an idea, wtich i find suits my playingstyle very well
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