Civilization: The Expansion Project
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East vs West marking on trade cards
https://dev.civproject.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=231
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Author:  busybody [ 2005-08-03 13:03:42 ]
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This is only going to effect split commodities, i.e. games with 16-18 players.

Currently, some sets are marked as E, and some as W, and the shared sets are half marked as E and half marked as W (see 9.34)

The non-native trade block rules (26.33) works well with 12-15 players, as each set is plainly marked on the card and there are no shared sets. So it's obvious, without having to check the rulebook, or an external reference whether or not that set of 3 cards being turned in gets the bonus or not.

] 26.33 In a game with 12-15 players the face values of set redeemed
] in its non-native trade block is added to the set value.

However, with 16-18 players, with the shared sets marked as they are now, you have to remember that not all cards marked for the other side get you the bonus, i.e. the shared sets.

In other words, if you happen to get two Amber marked with a W(est), and are an eastern player, you have to remember that Amber is shared and you don't get a bonus.

SUGGEST: The shared commodity cards have some distinguishing mark, so that the player can immediately tell that no non-native bonus is available. While this information can be checked by looking it up in the rulebook, or consulting the section on the map on each turnin, having it on the cards themselves will speed up play.

Author:  Jonno [ 2005-08-04 0:03:58 ]
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What about color coding the mark. IE True Western is a red W, shared western a black W, shared eastern a black E and true eastern a blue E?

Also thinking of not going red, as it get messed up on the non-tradable calamities. In such casse, one chould use black W, blue W, blue E, black E.

Yet another option is to mark only shared calamities, as native calamities realy doesn't nead any marking.

What do you think?

Author:  busybody [ 2005-08-05 13:10:01 ]
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Jonno wrote:
What about color coding the mark. IE True Western is a red W, shared western a black W, shared eastern a black E and true eastern a blue E?


Very nice!

Quote:
Also thinking of not going red, as it get messed up on the non-tradable calamities. In such casse, one chould use black W, blue W, blue E, black E.


Works for me... Black being shared, I would presume. Maybe Blue & Green? Maybe you could also put a white outline on the letter, where readability is a problem.

Quote:
Yet another option is to mark only shared calamities, as native calamities realy doesn't nead any marking.


Shared calamities? Huh? Aren't all calamaities true E & W? Or did you mean non-tradable?

With a non-tradable, it is possible to determine which stack it came from, yes (east non-tradable can only go and come from an east player), but it takes less time to figure out on turn in if the card is marked.

Author:  Jonno [ 2005-08-06 0:49:31 ]
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busybody wrote:
Jonno wrote:
Also thinking of not going red, as it get messed up on the non-tradable calamities. In such casse, one chould use black W, blue W, blue E, black E.


Works for me... Black being shared, I would presume. Maybe Blue & Green? Maybe you could also put a white outline on the letter, where readability is a problem.

I realy don't want to introduce a new color (green), that's why I sugested blue & black. Which color is what doesn't realy matter, but I would actually go blue for the shared.

busybody wrote:
Jonno wrote:
Yet another option is to mark only shared calamities, as native calamities realy doesn't nead any marking.


Shared calamities? Huh? Aren't all calamaities true E & W? Or did you mean non-tradable?

Sorry, I ment commodities. True E and W commodities does not need markig (as their type determines that).
Non-tradable don't leave their side, but I think there might be problems when restacking them (the person restacking might not remember whether it came from east or west).

busybody wrote:
With a non-tradable, it is possible to determine which stack it came from, yes (east non-tradable can only go and come from an east player), but it takes less time to figure out on turn in if the card is marked.

I agree completely.

So, currently my idea would be to mark all calamities with a blue E or a blue W.
Then I'd mark shared commodities with blue E or W.
Then, i'm thinking of, but not desided yet, if we should perhaps mark true East and West commodities with a black E and black W.

Hope this clears up all missunderstandings and give the rest of you a concrete sugestion to comment.

Author:  Jonno [ 2006-02-10 3:56:21 ]
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Jonno wrote:
So, currently my idea would be to mark all calamities with a blue E or a blue W.
Then I'd mark shared commodities with blue E or W.
Then, I'm thinking of, but not decided yet, if we should perhaps mark true East and West commodities with a black E and black W.

Hope this clears up all misunderstandings and give the rest of you a concrete suggestion to comment.

Today I (finally) made a draft of the updated commodities. I haven't generated any pngs, but the psd can be found at my site as usual (Warning: 27MB download). I haven't gotten around to the calamities yet, but they are coming...
I decided to go with a deep blue color (#0000A0) for the shared calamities. I did experiment with different shades of red and green as well, but red looked awful on Ceramics and Grain, and green looked awful on Herbs, so though a dark red generally looked better I decided that using a single color was more important.
I also decided to mark true east/west commodities with a black (white on the dark cards) E or W, as it wasn't very intrusive, and it made the cards look more conformant.

Any input is welcome!

Author:  jsuchard [ 2006-03-26 11:38:28 ]
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I have a few newbie questions related to East vs. West Commodity cards:

1) I see from some previous discussion threads that East vs. West markings on the card-backs have caused some problems in trading, so a suggestion has been made to put the E/W marking on the card-fronts. However, unless I am missing something important, I am not sure of the need for any E/W markings on the Commodity cards at all. If you are playing with enough people, some cards will only go in the West stacks, and some will only go in the East stacks; all you have to do is look at the type of Commodity to determine which stack it goes into, or if you will get bonus points for exotic Commodities (i.e., the cards are from the opposite side of the map to your civilization). Is it really so hard to remember which Commodities are East vs. West that the cards need to be marked? Seems to me that all the Commodity cards can have the same backing, and that there is no real need to have any marking on the front to designate East vs. West either.

2) [This is more of a Calamity question, but related to above.] I guess the Calamity cards need to be marked East vs. West on the front, so that you don't accidentally double up on Calamities on one side, and leave the other side of the map Calamity-deficient: Right?
And as long as I am asking a question about the Calamities, here's another: Have the red-backs for Calamity cards been eliminated? It looks like it. This would make card-counting a bit more important.

3) What about the Shared Commodities? At the beginning of the game, they are split between the East and West stacks. But what happens during the game when they are turned in to purchase Civ cards? Do they get split again? And if so, what about sets with an odd-number of cards? [I would suggest that the extra card go to the side of the map of the player turning in those cards.] Or are the Shared Commodity cards specifically marked to be returned to either the East or West stacks?

Thanks in advance!

Author:  Jonno [ 2006-03-26 21:45:48 ]
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jsuchard wrote:
1) I see from some previous discussion threads that East vs. West markings on the card-backs have caused some problems in trading, so a suggestion has been made to put the E/W marking on the card-fronts. However, unless I am missing something important, I am not sure of the need for any E/W markings on the Commodity cards at all. If you are playing with enough people, some cards will only go in the West stacks, and some will only go in the East stacks; all you have to do is look at the type of Commodity to determine which stack it goes into, or if you will get bonus points for exotic Commodities (i.e., the cards are from the opposite side of the map to your civilization). Is it really so hard to remember which Commodities are East vs. West that the cards need to be marked? Seems to me that all the Commodity cards can have the same backing, and that there is no real need to have any marking on the front to designate East vs. West either.

The problem lies with the shared commodities and tradable calamities. They are supposed to find their way back to their original stack, eventhough they can be traded between both sides. So at the very least they have to be marked. Marking the native East/West commodities, and non-tradable calamities is just to make them look more conformant, and will perhaps speed up trading a litle, as you don't have too look it up if you are unsure.

jsuchard wrote:
2) [This is more of a Calamity question, but related to above.] I guess the Calamity cards need to be marked East vs. West on the front, so that you don't accidentally double up on Calamities on one side, and leave the other side of the map Calamity-deficient: Right?
And as long as I am asking a question about the Calamities, here's another: Have the red-backs for Calamity cards been eliminated? It looks like it. This would make card-counting a bit more important.

You are right, tradable calamities must be marked to make sure they are restacked correctly.
The red-backed calamities was elimineted in 1991 by Avalon Hill when they released Advanced Civilization, so it's nothing unique to CivProject. Yes it does make card-counting useful, but the effect is neglible, and there is house rules to avoid it altogether (ie last3: To shuffle the non-tradable calamity together with the bottommost two cards, or stoic: To treat non-tradable calamities just like tradable ones).

jsuchard wrote:
3) What about the Shared Commodities? At the beginning of the game, they are split between the East and West stacks. But what happens during the game when they are turned in to purchase Civ cards? Do they get split again? And if so, what about sets with an odd-number of cards? [I would suggest that the extra card go to the side of the map of the player turning in those cards.] Or are the Shared Commodity cards specifically marked to be returned to either the East or West stacks?

There are always an even number of shared commodites! They are split evenly between the east and west stacks at the beginning, and when they are used they are retured to their original stack (which is why they have to be marked).

Author:  Velusion [ 2006-03-27 5:46:21 ]
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Quote:
Yes it does make card-counting useful, but the effect is neglible, and there is house rules to avoid it altogether (ie last3: To shuffle the non-tradable calamity together with the bottommost two cards, or stoic: To treat non-tradable calamities just like tradable ones).


Personally, I have never been a fan of the card-counting aspect of the game. I've often fantasized about using the stoic rules (everything is tradeable), but I fear the card-counting crowd would linch me.

I suppose I never really understood WHY some are non-tradeable?

Author:  Jonno [ 2006-04-19 6:17:02 ]
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Velusion wrote:
Personally, I have never been a fan of the card-counting aspect of the game. I've often fantasized about using the stoic rules (everything is tradeable), but I fear the card-counting crowd would linch me.

The general consensus in the circles I play (LinCon and GothCon, including the Swedish Championship) is that card counting is a bother that should be avoided, but is nessesary to win if possible. Thus the "last 3" house rules has become popular (to shuffle tradable calamities with the last two cards in their stack). Counting to avoid 100% risk of Civil War is worth it, no matter how much you hate counting, but counting to avoid a 33% risk is not.

Velusion wrote:
I suppose I never really understood WHY some are non-tradeable?

To balance some effects, and to make trading slightly less hazardous (I would be very cautios when trading if I knew I could get a Civil War in the last trade).

Author:  mcbeth [ 2006-04-19 7:43:16 ]
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In Zeno's Painted Porch, I expected trading to be cautious, but it actually have been much much more frenetic than trading in any other game I've run.

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