Civilization: The Expansion Project
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17+ Questions
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Author:  Mark [ 2007-12-12 11:51:21 ]
Post subject:  17+ Questions

I have a few questions about some ambiguities about this wonderful classic on which I wasted every Friday and Saturday of my youth.

1) If a ship is in a location where there is are no units belonging to me, can I maintain it with a treasury point?

2) In the taxation phase, if I don't have enough tokens to prevent all cities from going into revolt, but I one city would have a partial payment, do I need to pay my entire stock into the treasury? Or can I keep back the partial payment that would go to a city that is will revolt anyway? I'm 80% sure that I need to pay my entire stock.

2a) The taxation seems to be based on unit points, which means that cities in my stock count as 5. Can I use these 5 points to reclaim my own cities?

2b) If my cities come back to me, and each is worth 5, if a second player has revolting cities, can I use the cities placed back into my stock to count as 5 each to take over the cities of the next players whose cities go into revolt?

3) I'm pretty sure I can't refuse to maintain a ship and then rebuild it in the same space, even if I do this in 2 different locations. True, right?

4) 17.41 and 17.42. The parenthetical line is the more important. If there would be no conflict, it is still forbidden for a player to move into an area partially occupied by a player with Diplo, Cult Asc, or Adv Mil. This rule, I believe is completely Expansion Project and not at all Avalon Hill, right?

5) The ship capacity of 5--that's EP and not AH, right? I seem to remember 4?

6) OK, this I know is EP. Advanced Military. If I retreat, can I go absolutely to any neighboring location? Even if the retreat causes new conflicts? Or is that the reason I have to leave one behind--so that I can only retreat so far before attrition brings me down to nothing.

6a) If I can retreat anywhere, the order of conflict is potentially important. Determinted BY AST first, then player, right?

6b) Do I have to retreat on the first round of combat? Or can I, for example. reduce the attackers of a city to below the level where they would reduce the city, and then retreat?

6c) If I have superior numbers and I retreat, do I cause damage to my opponent? So say there is an area that holds 4. They have 3 tokens and I have 4. I retreat immediately and leave two. Does the area end up with 3 and 1 or 2 and 2?

7) Another EP question. Urbanism and Architecture: if I have both, and sufficient treasury, I theoretically need only 6 tokens to make a city on a non-city site (due to architecture) and if there are 4 tokens in a neighboring area, I only need 2 in an area to actually build a city? Or is it the case that 4 tokens in a neighboring area count as 8 tokens by the Architecture rule?

8) Rule 21.12 says that cities constructed this turn must be reduced first. But what about cities aquired but not constructed?

9) earthquake. So the most damaging location must be chosen. This includes the effects of 28.213 and 28.214 (Urbasim/Engineering)?

10) Treachery: If I don't trade a card and I have Diplomacy, I only reduce one city, right? Not two?

11) Famine. I think this is straightforward. If there is a Public Works token on a city area and I am a primary victim, I don't remove that token?

11a) I assume Calendar and Pottery effects are cumulative?

12) Civil War--EP, a new requirement 28.412- 7 areas between a player and the 'beneficiary'. Does that count open sea?

12a) If the primary and beneficiary are tied in the stock, is a Civil war optional?

12b) If I have Music and Drama and Poetry--that counts as 10 units, right?

12c) 28.416 Wow! I assume that if there is an area with atleast one token of the other faction, I must remove from that area or adjacent areas until there are no more. And that no tokens are actually removed until this whole process is done? So as my opponent removes the last token from an area, I am still obligated to remove tokens adjacent to that area before other nonadjacent areas?

12d) I assume 28.416 doesn't require me to go over the limit becuase I only have cities adjacent to the opponent? I can keep a city and remove tokens from nonadjacent areas?

13) 28.511 If a city in a non city site area is built in a non flood area (no dark green), is that city vulnerabel to floods?

13a) Can I assign more than 7 flood points to a player with Engineering so that I don't have to assign the remaining 3 points to another player?

14) Barbarian invasions--If I can direct the barbarians away from the primary victim using the rules of 28.523, can I make the barbarians go away? Or can the Barbarians move multiple areas at once?

15) Piracy--can the primary victim chose secondary cities that are on a different coast?

16) Banditry--"at least"? Please tell me how this works. It seems I can take all the victims cards because they value "at least" the number of cities? If he has 5 cities and a 7, 4, 2, and a 1, am I required to take the 4 and 1 or can I take the 7? Or can I take all? I assume I get to see all the cards.

17) Written Record--clarification! One color on each turn? Or do I choose a color once and only once? If so when?

Author:  Velusion [ 2007-12-20 18:02:50 ]
Post subject:  Re: 17+ Questions

Mark wrote:
I have a few questions about some ambiguities about this wonderful classic on which I wasted every Friday and Saturday of my youth.


I'll see what I can do to help answer questions. I hope others will correct anything incorrect I say. Any one I didn't quote I don't remember the answer for...

Mark wrote:
1) If a ship is in a location where there is are no units belonging to me, can I maintain it with a treasury point?


No

Mark wrote:
2) In the taxation phase, if I don't have enough tokens to prevent all cities from going into revolt, but I one city would have a partial payment, do I need to pay my entire stock into the treasury? Or can I keep back the partial payment that would go to a city that is will revolt anyway? I'm 80% sure that I need to pay my entire stock.

I'm not sure what you are asking. You reduce cities as you need to in order to pay the missing upkeep.
Mark wrote:
2a) The taxation seems to be based on unit points, which means that cities in my stock count as 5. Can I use these 5 points to reclaim my own cities?

See my answer above.
Mark wrote:
2b) If my cities come back to me, and each is worth 5, if a second player has revolting cities, can I use the cities placed back into my stock to count as 5 each to take over the cities of the next players whose cities go into revolt?

Yes.
Mark wrote:
3) I'm pretty sure I can't refuse to maintain a ship and then rebuild it in the same space, even if I do this in 2 different locations. True, right?

don't remember...
Mark wrote:
4) 17.41 and 17.42. The parenthetical line is the more important. If there would be no conflict, it is still forbidden for a player to move into an area partially occupied by a player with Diplo, Cult Asc, or Adv Mil. This rule, I believe is completely Expansion Project and not at all Avalon Hill, right?

No, you may still move and share space. Yes.
Mark wrote:
5) The ship capacity of 5--that's EP and not AH, right? I seem to remember 4?

Yes, EP rule.
Mark wrote:
6) OK, this I know is EP. Advanced Military. If I retreat, can I go absolutely to any neighboring location? Even if the retreat causes new conflicts? Or is that the reason I have to leave one behind--so that I can only retreat so far before attrition brings me down to nothing.

There is no "retreat"? Not sure where you got this.
Mark wrote:
6a) If I can retreat anywhere, the order of conflict is potentially important. Determinted BY AST first, then player, right?

See above answer.
Mark wrote:
6b) Do I have to retreat on the first round of combat? Or can I, for example. reduce the attackers of a city to below the level where they would reduce the city, and then retreat?

See above answer.
Mark wrote:
6c) If I have superior numbers and I retreat, do I cause damage to my opponent? So say there is an area that holds 4. They have 3 tokens and I have 4. I retreat immediately and leave two. Does the area end up with 3 and 1 or 2 and 2?

See above answer
Mark wrote:
7) Another EP question. Urbanism and Architecture: if I have both, and sufficient treasury, I theoretically need only 6 tokens to make a city on a non-city site (due to architecture) and if there are 4 tokens in a neighboring area, I only need 2 in an area to actually build a city? Or is it the case that 4 tokens in a neighboring area count as 8 tokens by the Architecture rule?

Your first deduction looks correct.
Mark wrote:
8) Rule 21.12 says that cities constructed this turn must be reduced first. But what about cities aquired but not constructed?

Has to be constructed. Acquired cities don't count.
Mark wrote:
9) earthquake. So the most damaging location must be chosen. This includes the effects of 28.213 and 28.214 (Urbasim/Engineering)?

Yes, include the civ affects when deciding.
Mark wrote:
10) Treachery: If I don't trade a card and I have Diplomacy, I only reduce one city, right? Not two?

He would reduce two as he is still the primary victim. This does need to be clarified in the rules.
Mark wrote:
11) Famine. I think this is straightforward. If there is a Public Works token on a city area and I am a primary victim, I don't remove that token?

Correct.
Mark wrote:
11a) I assume Calendar and Pottery effects are cumulative?

Yes
Mark wrote:
12) Civil War--EP, a new requirement 28.412- 7 areas between a player and the 'beneficiary'. Does that count open sea?

Yes
Mark wrote:
12a) If the primary and beneficiary are tied in the stock, is a Civil war optional?

Hmmm I would say that in the event of a tie a civil war doesn't happen - but this would need to be clarified.
Mark wrote:
12b) If I have Music and Drama and Poetry--that counts as 10 units, right?

Yes.
Mark wrote:
12c) 28.416 Wow! I assume that if there is an area with atleast one token of the other faction, I must remove from that area or adjacent areas until there are no more. And that no tokens are actually removed until this whole process is done? So as my opponent removes the last token from an area, I am still obligated to remove tokens adjacent to that area before other nonadjacent areas?

You can remove these from anywhere - no restrictions.
Mark wrote:
12d) I assume 28.416 doesn't require me to go over the limit becuase I only have cities adjacent to the opponent? I can keep a city and remove tokens from nonadjacent areas?

See above
Mark wrote:
13) 28.511 If a city in a non city site area is built in a non flood area (no dark green), is that city vulnerable to floods?

If it is on the coast - yes.
Mark wrote:
13a) Can I assign more than 7 flood points to a player with Engineering so that I don't have to assign the remaining 3 points to another player?

Yes
Mark wrote:
14) Barbarian invasions--If I can direct the barbarians away from the primary victim using the rules of 28.523, can I make the barbarians go away? Or can the Barbarians move multiple areas at once?

How the barbarian horde moves after the initial invasion is incorrect (unless something has changed) and needs to be clarified. I'll let Jonno do that. :P
Mark wrote:
15) Piracy--can the primary victim chose secondary cities that are on a different coast?

Yes
Mark wrote:
16) Banditry--"at least"? Please tell me how this works. It seems I can take all the victims cards because they value "at least" the number of cities? If he has 5 cities and a 7, 4, 2, and a 1, am I required to take the 4 and 1 or can I take the 7? Or can I take all? I assume I get to see all the cards.

This needs some clarification in the rules. The victim decides and must hand over AT LEAST 5 points worth of cards in whatever combination he wants. I would also say that if he didn't have at least 5 points worth of cards (per your example) he would have to hand over them all.
Mark wrote:
17) Written Record--clarification! One color on each turn? Or do I choose a color once and only once? If so when?

You choose once when the card is purchased.

Hope that helps some!

Author:  Jonno [ 2007-12-28 11:19:10 ]
Post subject:  Re: 17+ Questions

Velusion did a great job answering most questions, but I'm chiming in with a few clarifications and corrections.

Velusion wrote:
Mark wrote:
1) If a ship is in a location where there is are no units belonging to me, can I maintain it with a treasury point?

No

Actually, I'm quite sure one can. Only §16.21 limits where to place ships, and it only refers to building new ones, not maintaining existing ones.

Velusion wrote:
Mark wrote:
2) In the taxation phase, if I don't have enough tokens to prevent all cities from going into revolt, but I one city would have a partial payment, do I need to pay my entire stock into the treasury? Or can I keep back the partial payment that would go to a city that is will revolt anyway? I'm 80% sure that I need to pay my entire stock.

I'm not sure what you are asking. You reduce cities as you need to in order to pay the missing upkeep.

Velusion, I think you are mixing up taxation (§13) with city support (§21).
§13 doesn't explicitly state either way, but I'd assume you had to pay as much as you can, thus the entire stock. Should probably be clarified.

Velusion wrote:
Mark wrote:
2a) The taxation seems to be based on unit points, which means that cities in my stock count as 5. Can I use these 5 points to reclaim my own cities?

See my answer above.

§13.1 clearly states that you must use tokens to pay your taxes, not cities.
However, if you after you have paid your taxes, and before you remove any revolting cities, still have cities in stock, you will participate as a candidate for beneficiary, and in the unlikely event no one else has more unit points in stock, you will in fact be beneficiary yourself, and can thus replace cities with your own (to a maximum of the amount of cities you have in stock, after that the player with second most cities in stock will get the remainder, according to §13.32).

Velusion wrote:
Mark wrote:
2b) If my cities come back to me, and each is worth 5, if a second player has revolting cities, can I use the cities placed back into my stock to count as 5 each to take over the cities of the next players whose cities go into revolt?

Yes.

Yes, but in this case you must take into account which revolt occurs first. As nothing else is specified, that is A.S.T. order.

Velusion wrote:
Mark wrote:
3) I'm pretty sure I can't refuse to maintain a ship and then rebuild it in the same space, even if I do this in 2 different locations. True, right?

don't remember...

You can refuse to maintain a ship and rebuild it the same turn in a different area . (§16.3)

Velusion wrote:
Mark wrote:
4) 17.41 and 17.42. The parenthetical line is the more important. If there would be no conflict, it is still forbidden for a player to move into an area partially occupied by a player with Diplo, Cult Asc, or Adv Mil. This rule, I believe is completely Expansion Project and not at all Avalon Hill, right?

No, you may still move and share space. Yes.

Actually, as written right now you can't, but that wasn't the intention, so that has to be fixed for the next rules revision.

Velusion wrote:
Mark wrote:
7) Another EP question. Urbanism and Architecture: if I have both, and sufficient treasury, I theoretically need only 6 tokens to make a city on a non-city site (due to architecture) and if there are 4 tokens in a neighboring area, I only need 2 in an area to actually build a city? Or is it the case that 4 tokens in a neighboring area count as 8 tokens by the Architecture rule?

Your first deduction looks correct.

Yes, your first deduction is correct, if you got both you can potentially build a wilderness city in an area with only two tokens.

Velusion wrote:
Mark wrote:
8) Rule 21.12 says that cities constructed this turn must be reduced first. But what about cities aquired but not constructed?

Has to be constructed. Acquired cities don't count.

Acquired does in deed not count. However, be aware that if the player you acquired it from constructed it this turn, you must reduce it among the first.

Velusion wrote:
Mark wrote:
12a) If the primary and beneficiary are tied in the stock, is a Civil war optional?

Hmmm I would say that in the event of a tie a civil war doesn't happen - but this would need to be clarified.

Today it is ambiguous, should be clarified that no civil war occurs.

Velusion wrote:
Mark wrote:
12c) 28.416 Wow! I assume that if there is an area with atleast one token of the other faction, I must remove from that area or adjacent areas until there are no more. And that no tokens are actually removed until this whole process is done? So as my opponent removes the last token from an area, I am still obligated to remove tokens adjacent to that area before other nonadjacent areas?

You can remove these from anywhere - no restrictions.

Actually you can't. If possible you must remove units from areas next to an area containing the opponents units. Tokens in the same area as an opposing unit does not automatically count as adjacent (but they may be, if there is an opposing unit in another area next to the first one).

This entire use of "adjacent" is quite an mess, one that isn't defined in the rules but depends on the definition of the word "adjacent" in the English language (in this context meaning next to, but not in the same place). Should probably be clarified.

Velusion wrote:
Mark wrote:
12d) I assume 28.416 doesn't require me to go over the limit becuase I only have cities adjacent to the opponent? I can keep a city and remove tokens from nonadjacent areas?

See above

Actually, if the only adjacent unit you can remove is a city, you must "reduce" it (replace it with tokens up to the population limit, up to 4), and count the difference in unit points towards the amount you must remove. If this takes you above the amount, so be it. Of course, if you must reduce cities, it is probably better to to that first, so you can leave a maximum amount of tokens.

Velusion wrote:
Mark wrote:
]
13) 28.511 If a city in a non city site area is built in a non flood area (no dark green), is that city vulnerable to floods?

If it is on the coast - yes.

Not to the primary effect (§28.511), but if it is on the coast, it is vulnerable to §28.514, just as any other city, with or without city site, be they black or white.

Velusion wrote:
Mark wrote:
14) Barbarian invasions--If I can direct the barbarians away from the primary victim using the rules of 28.523, can I make the barbarians go away? Or can the Barbarians move multiple areas at once?

How the barbarian horde moves after the initial invasion is incorrect (unless something has changed) and needs to be clarified. I'll let Jonno do that. :P

I know this was up for a controversial discussion at the time of the rewrite, but I thought we finally agreed that all attacks from the barbarians was subject to the same "initial invasion" rules. This means that, as opposed to in AdvCiv, you can not "lead away" the barbarians, as subsequent attacks can be done to any place where they could have done the initial attack. While the rules now is unambiguous, they differ quite a lot from the AdvCiv rules, so if you start with preconceptions from having played AdvCiv (or pre-2.07 civproject) it can get confusing. Should we perhaps start §28.52 with a note saying that it differs from AdvCiv, and that you must forget any preconceptions you might have?

Velusion wrote:
Mark wrote:
16) Banditry--"at least"? Please tell me how this works. It seems I can take all the victims cards because they value "at least" the number of cities? If he has 5 cities and a 7, 4, 2, and a 1, am I required to take the 4 and 1 or can I take the 7? Or can I take all? I assume I get to see all the cards.

This needs some clarification in the rules. The victim decides and must hand over AT LEAST 5 points worth of cards in whatever combination he wants. I would also say that if he didn't have at least 5 points worth of cards (per your example) he would have to hand over them all.

I agree with Velusion, both in the effects and that a clarification would be needed.
Mark: Please not that the VICTIM selects the cards, the beneficiary don't get to see any cards but the ones he is getting. In the above example the victim could choose to give the 7, the 4 and the 2, or the 4 and the 1. He could in fact choose to hand over all his cards, but anything but the above three choices would be stupid.

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