Civilization: The Expansion Project
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Name and branding
https://dev.civproject.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=422		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  Jonno [ 2007-06-07 7:32:02 ]
Post subject:  Name and branding
One thing that has bugged me for a while is the issue of name and branding of the project.

While "Civilization: The Expansion Project" is a great name and a good description of the project, it has one problem. "Civilization", when referring to a computer game or a board game, is a registered trademark of Take Two Interactive. Basically that means that to call a computer game or a board game "Civilization" you need their permission. I haven't asked, but I don't think it's likely they'll consent...

Secondly there is the issue of branding, or rather the lack thereof. To summarize the current state we have four different "logos", (the one on the website, the one on Martin's map, the one on Mark's map and the text "Civilization: The Expansion Project" written using Maiandra GD, used on the rulebook etc). None of these logos is remotely similar, and none fits as part of a greater "graphical profile".

To rectify this I'm proposing the following procedure:
  1. We come up with a new name for the game.
  2. We "adopts" an official font of the project.
  3. We creates a logo featuring the new name in the new font.
  4. I redesigns the rulebook and other printed materials to include the logo (when feasible) or else the new name in the new official font. If possible (the font is not too intrusive) the official font should also be used in all "top level" headings in the rulebook.


I have a few proposals I'll add below, and I'd love some comments on them. Also, please feel free to propose your own.
Author:  Jonno [ 2007-06-07 7:43:50 ]
Post subject:  Civilization: The Expansion Project - Codification
My first proposal is mostly a codification of the current state of affairs.
It's included here as a reference, I'm not actually proposing this.
  1. Civilization: The Expansion Project, officially abbreviated CivProject.
    Note my trademark concerns above though.
  2. Maiandra GD
    This font has a far to modern feel for my taste. Also note that it is expensive to use legally.
  3. Logo.svg

Logo preview for Firefox (and any other browser supporting transparent PNG):
Image

Low quality logo preview for IE:
Image
Author:  Jonno [ 2007-06-07 7:51:08 ]
Post subject:  Civilization: The Expansion Project - Refreshed
My second proposal is a refreshed version, based on my trade card back proposal.
It is included as an alternative if you are married to the current name.
  1. Civilization: The Expansion Project, officially abbreviated CivProject.
    Note my trademark concerns above though.
  2. Black Chancery
  3. Logo.svg

Logo preview for Firefox (and any other browser supporting transparent PNG):
Image

Low quality logo preview for IE:
Image
Author:  Jonno [ 2007-06-07 7:58:09 ]
Post subject:  Dawn of History
This, third, proposal is my main one.
  1. Dawn of History, officially abbreviated DoH.
    I originally got the idea by reading on the AdvCiv box, and it kind of stuck.
    Quote:
    ADVANCED CIVILIZATION is the Avalon Hill Game Company's trademark for its Dawn of History Game Expansion
  2. Black Chancery
  3. Logo.svg

Logo preview for Firefox (and any other browser supporting transparent PNG):
Image

Low quality logo preview for IE:
Image
Author:  Michael [ 2007-06-08 15:40:54 ]
Post subject: 
Why not just call it CivProject?

I think, the new name should somehow sound like Civilization so people immediatelly know, what the game is about.

BTW: The Black Chancery font looks nice.

Regards,
Michael
Author:  Jonno [ 2007-06-17 6:16:04 ]
Post subject:  Regarding abbreviations
I had hoped for a few more comments before replying. Anyway, here goes:

CivProject is imho an awful suggestion for an actual name, for a couple of reasons. Firstly, while an experienced civ player might recognise the name for what it means (a project to improve Civilization), it means nothing to someone new to civ. Secondly, if it sounds, looks and smells like an abbreviation, it is an abbreviation, the only question is of what. Without an official meaning, people will just make them up, which detracts from the brand, rather than reinforces it. And lastly, it doesn't really solve the trademark issue, as "Civ", in the context of computer and board games, is universally recognized as an abbreviation for the Civilization® brand, thus being included in the Civilization trademark even though it is not registered. (An unregistered trademark is no less valid than a registered trademark, just more expensive to defend in court, and when it comes to money, we don't stand a chance).

Nice that you like my suggestion for font though.

More comments are very welcome. Without any, I won't be able to do anything, and I think a branding is an important issue to solve for this project.
Author:  Sparky [ 2007-06-20 8:27:11 ]
Post subject: 
I like the font and the new name.
Author:  Velusion [ 2007-06-22 20:14:21 ]
Post subject: 
There are two ways to look at this:

1# this game is different enough from Civilization that it deserves to be completely separated from the source material via brand. This will also hopefully solve any legal issues.

or

#2 The game is just a fan-based variant of Civilization and should still include the "civilization".

The benefit of the former is that it might solve the problem of the owners of "civilization" from conducting legal action and it sounds better. The downside is that you will loose the name recognition of "Civilization" and many gamers will consider it a rip-off of the game rather than a variant that just pays homage to the original game.

One alternative is to officially call it "Dawn of History: An Advanced Civilization Variant."
Author:  Jonno [ 2007-06-26 4:29:52 ]
Post subject: 
Velusion wrote:
There are two ways to look at this:
1# this game is different enough from Civilization that it deserves to be completely separated from the source material via brand. This will also hopefully solve any legal issues.

This is, as you might have gathered, my opinion.

Velusion wrote:
#2 The game is just a fan-based variant of Civilization and should still include the "civilization".

This is the expansions origin, but in my humble opinion it has since become something more

Velusion wrote:
The benefit of the former is that it might solve the problem of the owners of "civilization" from conducting legal action and it sounds better. The downside is that you will loose the name recognition of "Civilization" and many gamers will consider it a rip-off of the game rather than a variant that just pays homage to the original game.

One alternative is to officially call it "Dawn of History: An Advanced Civilization Variant."

That is a bit tough for a name, if that is the consensus I'd prefer "An Advanced Civilization variant" as basis for a tag line (my current idea is something on the lines of "A game for five to eighteen players where you lead your civilization through the ages", but I'm not married to it). However, I think it would be better to simply give homage in form of a "authors foreword" or similar in the rulebook.
In my planed (but so far barely begun) rewrite of the rulebook I'm planing to write an acknowledgement that "Dawn of History" (or whatever we end up calling it) is heavily influenced by, and many of the basic concepts is taken from, Civilization, Advanced Civilization and Civilization: The Expansion Project, and then go on to thank "F. G. Tresham, Bruce Harper, John Rodriguez and their contributors, without whom this game would never have been conceived", or something similar.
Author:  Flo de Haan [ 2008-01-28 20:33:56 ]
Post subject: 
As long as the word "Civilization" is a registered Trademark, it cannot be used.

Otherwise, starting with "The Civilization {Board Game} Expansion Project" would cover a lot.

You could also mention the game is (though originally founded by Velusion) developed by people all over the world.

Some addition like "The Collective Civilization Board Game Project" or something similar.
This could be a subtile (so it would distinct it from any official release)
Like "Magic: The Gathering - Collectible tradecardgame"

"18 Player Civilization - an addition by Civilization players over the world"


In my surroundings it is to be mentioned wether it's Avalon Hill's Civ, Sid Meier's Civ or the original Computer games, or any spin-off.

But I don't know how that works in Registered Trademarks-rules.

What?
Author:  Jonno [ 2008-01-28 22:49:48 ]
Post subject: 
Flo de Haan wrote:
As long as the word "Civilization" is a registered Trademark, it cannot be used.

Correction: As long as "Civilization" is a trademark (registered or not) we may end up in a lot of trouble if we use it as (part of) the name.
Lots of grey area...

Flo de Haan wrote:
Otherwise, starting with "The Civilization {Board Game} Expansion Project" would cover a lot.

You could also mention the game is (though originally founded by Velusion) developed by people all over the world.

Some addition like "The Collective Civilization Board Game Project" or something similar.
This could be a subtile (so it would distinct it from any official release)
Like "Magic: The Gathering - Collectible tradecardgame"

"18 Player Civilization - an addition by Civilization players over the world"

To me this sounds like tag line suggestions rather than name suggestions. A good name should be short and distinctive, but not necessarily descriptive.

Actually, a descriptive name is usually bad, because it wouldn't distinguish this particular "collective civilization board game project" from any other "collective civilization board game project" that may exist, now or in the future. There is a reason they called it "Google", not "Search Engine"...

Our current tag line is "An unofficial variant for Avalon Hill's out of print game Advanced Civilization", but I'm not married to it (in fact I don't quite like it at all).

Flo de Haan wrote:
In my surroundings it is to be mentioned wether it's Avalon Hill's Civ, Sid Meier's Civ or the original Computer games, or any spin-off.

But I don't know how that works in Registered Trademarks-rules.

What?

I don't quite follow what you are saying here. If I'm to describe CivProject for someone, I always mention it is based on Avalon Hill's game Advanced Civilization, which is a boardgame based on the same boardgame that gave Sid Meier the original idea for the computer games. However, that has nothing to do with name or branding of the project.

And regarding trademark rules, overly simplified we are basically only allowed to use the name "Civilization" when referring to the original Civilization®, Advanced Civilization™, Avalon Hill's Advanced Civilization™, Sid Meier's Civilization®, Sid Meier's Civilization® II, Civilization: Call to Power™, Sid Meier's Civilization® III, Civilization IV® or Sid Meier's Civilization®: The Board Game, and not when referring to anything else (such as this project).
So saying this game is similar to Advanced Civilization™ is OK (as long as it is factually correct, and you don't try to sound as if Take Two Interactive somehow sponsors it), saying that it is Civilization is not OK (as only Take Two Interactive may name "a unit for playing board and electronic games" as Civilization).
Author:  Flo de Haan [ 2008-01-29 10:25:23 ]
Post subject: 
OK, then I like "Dawn of History: An Advanced Civilization Variant." best of all options.
Author:  Flo de Haan [ 2008-03-31 17:09:07 ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
As for definitive name, there is only two options
1. Civilization: The Expansion Project (CivProject)
2. Dawn of History (DoH)

And then there is lots of options for tag lines.



Ok.

let's heat this issue up, and try and get to results.

Who is making descissions on this.
I thought the use of 'Civilization' was prohibited.

anyway. the game is not a real expansion, but a Stand Alone, isn't it?
Author:  Jonno [ 2008-03-31 18:13:55 ]
Post subject: 
There are potential trademark issues with using "Civilization" as part of the name of any board game. But unless Take Two Interactive officially complains, we can continue to use it, as long as we are aware that we might have to change it on very short notice if they do. (In this case "short notice" might mean "instantaneous", i.e. the site has to go offline while update all pages and components to remove all references to the offending name).

I'll be making any official decisions myself, but I'm going to listen to what the community has to say before doing anything drastic...

The game is definitely a stand alone game. However, it could still be said to be an expanded version of Advanced Civilization even though it's not an expansion pack to Advanced Civilization. Personally I prefer to look at it as an independent game inspired by, or [i]in the spirit of[i], Advanced Civilization, in which case "Dawn of History" makes more sense than "Civilization: The Expansion Project".
Author:  Flo de Haan [ 2008-03-31 18:19:31 ]
Post subject: 
SO we end up using something like:

Dawn of History
an expansion to 'Advanced Civilization'


Note: I've used the 'brackets' to be included in the name, to celarly state we're talking bout the boardgame 'Advanced Civilization' and not any computer game, sid meier's version or whatever.

(Whenever you are thinking in officially publishing, The front of the box should state:

"up to 18 players"
"Stand Alone game"
"Based on 'Advanced Civilization'"

The back SHOULD contain a picture of the mapboard fully used, to show that it's THE game. Easily recognized by Civ-fans.

But that's way too far in future for now I guess.)

When wanting to explain things like 'created by fans al over the world', these things should only be in the manual. Maybe as introduction on the first page.
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